Get Curious - People Pleasing (Part 2) | 012

Nicole Lohse: 00:00:00

Welcome to part two of the get curious series where we're exploring people pleasing patterns. I had so many people reach out sharing that they were people pleasers, and they wanted to explore. So I decided to do two episodes. Because I find it really helpful to hear from a number of different people who have similar patterns. Yet often these patterns can be so different. So I hope that this episode provides you with some deeper insight into your own patterns that revolve around people pleasing, so that you can continue to get curious about how it is you show up in the world and how it is you people please. And how it is that you can actually create some space around these people pleasing patterns, and discover what else is possible. These patterns are often rooted in your trauma in the burdens you carry, and the parts that you've exiled, they all shape the ways you people, please. So the more you inquire into how it is you show up in the world and these patterns, the more you get to deepen your awareness into what's at the core of them, while also expanding into other possibilities of how to show up in the world and not be such a people pleaser. It's quite relieving. It takes a weight off the shoulders. And the more we can show up as humans with more space with more ability to be in the grace of simply being human with all kinds of complex patterns, the easier being human becomes. So dive into this episode, get ready to explore your own relationship to people pleasing and see what it is you learn and see how it is you can create more space for choice in how it is you navigate life. I'm really looking forward to having three more people who are willing to explore people pleasing patterns say that 10 times fast. And I'm because I got so much response from people around curiosity in their patterns that revolve around people pleasing. So the previous episode, we had four people that shared their experience around people pleasing, and I'm really looking forward to hearing Pamela and Kelly and Amanda's experience around people pleasing because our last call, we had so many different patterns that were talked about. So people pleasing can come in so many different forms. And I find it really helpful to hear as many people's experience around patterning because it allows us just to see ourselves and other people and to then also learn more about ourselves through what we hear and other people. So my intention with the second episode of people pleasing patterns is for us just to continue to get curious about our own experiences, and how do we deepen our awareness of ourselves and how we show up in relationship to people pleasing? And how do we also work with that? So welcome, Kelly, and Pamela and, Amanda, thank you so much for being here. I'd love to start just with a little intro of your name where you are, because that's always interesting. And also what in this moment you're experiencing, I find this as good practice for us to pause. And notice in this moment, what are we experiencing, because we're so good at talking about the past. And what I want to really invite people into is notice what is it you're experiencing about yourself in this moment. So for me, I'm noticing I'm sitting in a really uncomfortable chair. I like to sit cross legged and my legs are being squished by the side arm. So I'm feeling the pressure the side arm on my arm, but I'm determined to sit this way. And without even naming it, I just took a deep breath and I feel myself softening I can feel I can hear real snoring in the background. And I'm just noticing myself slow down a little in how I'm speaking as I'm also hearing the sound of him and it's allowing me to settle a little bit more I can feel that settling happening. Because I'm looking outside, I'm slowing down and my muscle tone feels a little less tense and on. So that's my current experience of myself. Anyone want to go next?

Nicole Lohse: 00:04:24

pauses are also totally fine because we can edit them out. So that awkward like who's next no big deal.

Kelly: 00:04:32

In my immediate surroundings, I'm noticing some birds there's a fountain going so there's some external things I feel like that are helping relax me. But I'm also noticing a little bit of an internal energy of hope I like do this right or say things that resonate. Maybe a little bit of

Unknown: 00:04:56

pressure.

Kelly: 00:04:58

But yeah, it just feels like A little bit of energy mostly in my chest that I feel like is coming up. Really?

Nicole Lohse: 00:05:07

Great. Thanks, Kelly. And you are in California, correct? Yes,

Kelly: 00:05:11

Kelly Southern California. And yeah, this background is real.

Nicole Lohse: 00:05:19

We were for those watching the video, you can see it and for those listening, we were admiring Kelly's background of palms and incredible flowers and crease. And yeah, you the question was, was it real? Is it real? It is.

Pamela: 00:05:35

I'll go next. My name is pamela, and in this moment, I'm feeling a little bit nervous, actually, my immediate surroundings are peaceful and there's a cat outside crying, I don't know if we can hear him. And so he's looking for a girl cat to have some fun with. He's been hanging around where we're I'm staying for the last few games. I've got a little bit of tightness in my chest, I can sort of feel my heart lettering a bit at the thought of this forever being No, something that nobody will be around for a while. But I'm also excited to share this space and and talk about this topic. So middle get a tightness in the body, but also a sense of peace and, and welcoming. Awesome. Thanks,

Nicole Lohse: 00:06:37

Pamela. And you're currently in Ontario, Vancouver's home, but currently, somewhere on the in the Ontario land. That's right. Thanks, everyone.

Amanda: 00:06:48

Amanda, I'm in Virginia. So on the east coast as well. I'm in my house and I'm surrounded by some animals, dogs. One just timely started crying. I feel a little less sure of the word apprehension, maybe the one that I'm talking about, he likes attention. So if I'm sitting here not giving him giving him attention, it's possible that he will notify me. So anticipating an interruption from him, they're also chewing on their toys. There's a window straight ahead with a beautiful view of the yard and everything. And it's also starting to get darker. So I am feeling internally like a wind down, had a sore throat earlier. So I've made some tea and never made it before. It's blue. So I'm also feeling some excitement about this tea, I know. I'm feeling pretty open. Because I'm wondering if some of the things that I have in mind for what people pleasing is the way it shows up for me really kind of falls into the bucket or not. So I'm feeling really open, like here to learn and hear to just better understand people pleasing.

Nicole Lohse: 00:08:25

I like that question of like, oh, do my patterns fall under play people pleasing? And what comes to mind is like, the question that first came when you said that is like, Well, how would I experience myself if someone in the room wasn't okay. And you don't have to answer that. It's just a question for all of us to ponder of like, okay, if I was in a room, and someone wasn't okay, how would I experience myself? Or what kind of pattern might I shift into? Or? Is there something I want to do? That's one way we can inquire into people pleasing. So let's kind of direct the conversation into that a little bit more of like, what do you currently know, of your people pleasing patterns? How do you know that you have these patterns? What do they look like? Have you experienced yourself in them? And how have they impacted your life? Anything that kind of wants to be woven into that and then we'll get the conversation started from there.

Amanda: 00:09:26

I'll keep going. So we brought it up before hitting record, but the one that's pretty fresh for me is when I've got to get ready to leave the house or join a meeting like this one. I'm I don't allocate enough time, substantial time, enough time for me to get ready. Whatever that means. Look, I want to look maybe not be racing out the door. That's a pretty common one. That I'll take care of so many other things, whether they really need to get done or not, it will easily Trump me getting ready. And I've gotten used to that haste, and just throwing it together. And also, like having a threshold of good enough. Like, as far as you know, like how put together I look, which sometimes I see as a gift, but then anymore, it's like, well, I would really like to, you know, that whatever, fill in the blank. So that's one that's come up for me pretty pretty recently.

Nicole Lohse: 00:10:47

How often does that involve other people? Or your to do list or other

Amanda: 00:10:54

people? Majority of the time? What's that?

Nicole Lohse: 00:10:59

Animals count as well?

Amanda: 00:11:01

Okay, all the time? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. All the time. With other beings involved and the To Do lists? Yes. Kind of never ending. Yeah, always something to do. Yeah.

Nicole Lohse: 00:11:23

So there's this kind of looming To Do List, you're always trying to rush to get some of the to do list things done, as well as make sure everyone else is organized or okay or sorted, kind of throwing, throwing yourself together in a good enough way to leave the house or attend a meeting. But that's kind of the last priority of the thing that's on the list. And it's what I'm hearing. And what you're describing is, it's always like a bit of a rush. It's always this last minute rushing to kind of do it all. With this timeframe in mind. Yeah, great. Anything you want to add around how it impacts your life?

Amanda: 00:12:01

Um, I've noticed that I'll attend events, you know, so if it is a physical meeting something away from my house, I'll go feel rushed the whole time. It ends and I get home and maybe can't really recall what it was. What I did, how it was, you know? Was I really present? Yeah, just kind of like a spaciousness in like, the attentiveness that I'll have to whatever it is that I'm, I'm rushing to. If I miss something in the haste, and then the rush, there's kind of a punishment cycle with that. Yeah, that's, that's the biggest thing, I

Nicole Lohse: 00:12:56

think. Okay, great. Thank you. So that on this stays on, even when you're at the event, there's this like, on this to the point where you don't even quite remember what happens in what you attended, or, you know, the whole whole journey through whatever you went to, by the time you get home. It's kind of like what what even happened? What What can't even quite retain What even was involved in all of that. And then sometimes some of the things that did happen or didn't get attended to before you left, there's a whole vortex you find yourself in this punishment that can happen around I didn't get to those things or didn't do this or that. Okay, great. I'll just invite anyone to notice if they can relate to any of the aspects of that there's some good good pieces in there that I'm sure are relatable. So we'll take a look a little bit more about at those patterns. One says we dive in. Thanks. That's great.

Pamela: 00:14:03

Like Share a pattern for me, that relates to over committing to things and actually as Amanda was talking, when I was relating, I don't know if you can notice, but I turned red. No, like I got all flushed and thinking about the times and then my voice now my voice is gone. And I got sort of tightness in my chest because that, for sure was one of my patterns of over committing to things putting my hand up for everything at work and in family and, you know, you know, I'll be the treasurer and well join, you know, the parent committee and just overcommitting for sure was my pattern to please people to do things and And it during, you know, we didn't pacted my life a lot. I had two children and impacted their life a lot. But I was like, I just had to always be doing everything all the time. For sure, why reflected and came from a place of low self esteem, that by doing things I was valuable to people or made me feel like I was worthy. And you know, in the moment, like, sort of, in the, in the times I'm doing it, because this went on for a long time, before I started to kind of what I call recovery. You know, in working with the coal, we get to the roots of things, and for sure, the roots of that place of feeling not good enough. No, we, we found those roots and were able to address them. So um, you know, I'm happy to say I, I don't put my hand up for everything now. But I'm quite aware that I want to. And in that awareness of, you know, do I have time for this? What's more important? Does this is this serving me? You know, can someone else do it? And just being able to before I say, Yes, I went through a period of saying no to everything, as well, no, no, no, even said no to some things. And then I call up the next day and go, Yeah, I can do that. It's like, I had to, I had to learn how to how to say no, and how to reflect and compare. And so that's been, that's been very helpful to me and to, to learn to prioritize myself. So how did it affect my life? I was just way over committed and exhausted and had to, you know, how did I overcome that I had to learn how to say no better boundaries and, and more consideration of, of my own needs.

Nicole Lohse: 00:17:33

Yeah. Before we hit record, we were talking a bit about like habits versus patterns. And I can't remember where I heard this, but I really liked it that a habit is no longer a habit once we have awareness around it. Because once we have awareness around it, then there's room for choice. And it might not always seem that way. 100%. But what I'm hearing and what you're reflecting, Pamela, is that you discovered choice, you first discovered the pattern, the habit, which then you untangled more of the pattern that was involved. And you found windows where you had choice, where you could choose to do something different, where you went from one extreme of always saying yes to then saying no to everything. But it allowed you to differentiate what actually did you want to do? Versus I'm doing it because I feel like I should, and I'm over committing right. And really, although the impulse to still say yes, is there when maybe that, you know, it's not really a genuine impulse to want to say yes, there is more room to inquire further, like, okay, instinctually Is this a yes? Is from a more deep knowing place? Is this a yes? Is this something I want to take on or agree to? I think that's such a beautiful indicator of doing your own, inquiring and recognizing not only what's at the core, but that that space that we can create, to often have choice. And again, it's not, oh, it doesn't always seem like we have choice, especially when we're newer to seeing patterns. And we haven't yet resolved the underlying trauma. And it's so deeply rooted, it can be hard to even grasp that we have choice, but the more we untangle from the many layers that are at play, more choice we recognize we have Yeah.

Pamela: 00:19:35

A turning point for me was when I heard Byron Katie say, a no to you is a yes to me. So that that sort of narrative new narratives helped me you know, transition heretofore,

Nicole Lohse: 00:19:53

like that would be known to you as a yesterday All right. Anything else you wanted to add around any of your patterns? Any other patterns that are that are lingering still?

Pamela: 00:20:11

Doing things for people that they should do? Or themselves? Yeah. That showed up in my life, with my husband, with my kids. And people at work, you know, it's part of over committing, but part of also thinking I was supposed to do those things like in terms of giving kids chores and things like that. So learning, what is the positive versus doing for what someone should do for themselves? Yeah. And the kind of negative consequences is obviously physical exhaustion, but also resentment. Though, becoming aware of that pattern was like, Wow, no. And I, I, again, had to stop. So went through a period of like, not doing anyone else's laundry, or

Nicole Lohse: 00:21:34

sometimes we go from one extreme to the other. I speak to pendulums a lot, where it's like, oh, now I know I do it. So if I have the will to not do it, I'm gonna not do it to the extreme. And then we we find the middle ground. Yeah.

Pamela: 00:21:47

And boy, do you ever see beautiful things happen? When people take responsibility for themselves? It's actually really empowering. And yeah, and I want to come back to that. Yeah. Because

Nicole Lohse: 00:22:02

it's I think that's such a juicy piece, especially for people pleasers like to recognize when we're almost taking agency away from someone better, or allowing people to discover their own response, sense of responsibility and sense of self through our people pleasing. So I'd love to speak to that a little bit more in a bit. Thank you. Right, Kelly,

Kelly: 00:22:25

what do we got, I just want to echo what Pamela said about the resentment that has been such a huge indicator for me, that I am people pleasing over giving. So that's really, how I'm able to know I'm in that pattern or place. So you're not alone in that. Um, so I thought about people pleasing. And I think I broke it down to just an abandonment of myself, in order to prevent others from rejecting or abandoning me, if that makes sense. So I would show up in ways where I would leave my body and overdo things over give, get too many gifts for people I didn't know, help clean dishes at people's houses, whose parties I were invited to things of that nature, to get them to like me almost. And the flavoring of that has changed as I've become more aware of those patterns. But I would just say ultimately, Yao is an avoidance of having others reject me, and what can I do to ensure that they'll like me, and that they'll stay? That was really that's really at the heart of my people pleasing patterns, I'd say.

Nicole Lohse: 00:24:02

Love it. Love the done into perfectly describing people pleasing? Yeah. Yeah. And

Kelly: 00:24:11

I had to, I had to check myself. Because it's almost a little for myself manipulative and nature. I'm going to project this image of who I think you want me to be, but this is not and you're gonna, you're gonna fall in love or you're gonna like me, or you're gonna want to become my friend based on this image. But then I'm gonna get resentful and then I'm gonna get angry, and then you're not going to meet my expectations. And we're gonna come to a head and the other person's like, Oh, hold on a second. You're just doing what you've always done. Like, who are you? So it's a it's really interesting to pull the pieces apart and people pleasing or it has been for me, too. Um, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:25:02

that makes sense. Big time. And I see lots of nods happening. And what I appreciate for you, Kelly is like, you know, what's at the core of it, right is this fear of rejection, fear of abandonment. And the more we can see what's at the core of the patterns that we find ourselves in, the more we can understand why we do these things, why we do these, you know, fascinating things that we do as human beings. So that's what we're going to do a little bit of today. For those that don't know what's at the core, you may you may reveal what's at the core of it, why you do the patterns that you do, why you find yourself in them. That rejection piece is such a big one, right? And abandonment is another common common piece that's at the core of why we people, please there's that sense of belonging, having value being worthy is something you mentioned. Pamela, right. So it's like at the core of these survival patterns that we find ourselves in, it's usually something vague like that, like, let me make sure I don't ever have to experience that thank you very much. So we'll do a little dive into into what might be at the core of them. But before we do that, I want to also inquire how you notice you're in these patterns, because that's one big piece for me is like, the more we become aware of the experience of ourselves, the more we can feel when we're shifting into some of these patterns. And some of the ways that I'll explore my patterns is like, if I can notice that transition point, if I can notice when I'm kind of like, Wolf, there's some sort of perceived threat here move, I better move into whatever pattern it might be, the more we're able to recognize that as a choice point, and the more we're able to also work with whatever it was that we perceived as a threat, before we entered into our people pleasing patterns. So to start, that point of transition of us moving into our patterns isn't quite obvious. But what can be obvious is how we feel how we experience ourselves when we're in that pattern. So something I heard Amanda say is like when you're in that, rushing to get ready, there's a speed to it, right? There's this rush to it. So I'll let you all answer this question instead of me making guesses. But I'm going to inquire how this all inquire into like, okay, when you're in the pattern, how do you know you're in the pattern? And sometimes it's not until after you've reflect? How do you know there are flavors? And I Oh, Pamela, you've you're more in the recovery stages of it. But there's still that impulse that arises of wanting to sign up for the thing. So how do you notice that part of you come online, even though it doesn't take over like it may have used to in the past? Right? So to just share a little like, how do you change what happens in your physiology? How does your face change and your behavior change? What emotions might be present? Yeah, anything that that arises there, so we can I want to invite anyone else listening, like, as we're talking about these patterns? How do you know you move into that pattern? What does it look like? How do you? Yeah, I'll pause there and let y'all just describe.

Pamela: 00:28:31

I think you are directing that at me to start right.

Nicole Lohse: 00:28:35

Okay, anyone's fine. Totally. Anyone's when

Pamela: 00:28:38

I started to call myself a gambler. It was a hit, was a hit, you know, signing up for that course. And, you know, helping that person and there is such a thing as the helpers. Hi. Right. So I started to recognize that I was getting a, you know, whatever, dopamine or whatever neuro chemicals were firing. It was, you know, like taking a drink.

Nicole Lohse: 00:29:16

So even pause us right now, for those that can reflect on this, this feeling of like, when I reach and sign up for the thing, or agree and say yes to something or take action to help someone. Just notice even if you reflect on doing that, if there's a flavor to it that you notice in this moment. I know for me as you're talking about it, Pamela I can feel my heart rate increase a little I'm leaning forward. There's almost this like, yeah, like, Yeah, I know that feeling. Alright, so I just want to invite everyone else to kind of pause to notice if you think about that, if you think about that, taking care of someone else or doing the thing, you know, that allows others to others and you to feel safer and unquote safer. or helped or supported or connected, whatever it is, like how do you feel yourself in that hit? Kelly or Amanda, do you want to reflect anything? If you can relate to this? Can you feel that adrenaline head or that dopamine head or that whatever it is?

Amanda: 00:30:22

Yeah. Pamela, that's awesome. That really literally opened my eyes. I feel like a sense of victory with what you just offered Nicole as far as being able to help. Because if I had to maybe put like, an archetype on the people pleasing that I'm historically pattern to shifting out of it. It's, it's very much a savior. Right? Like, and my biggest challenge right now is the animal fostering. But I'm sitting with like, I have historically offered unsolicited advice. You know, I am pretty quick to jump in the trenches with you, and we are going to figure this out. I enjoy holding space for people, but I'm at present learning to identify that threshold, like we've all said, When are you doing the work for somebody? So yeah, not in this moment, per se, but recalling even a text conversation of hey, this, this came up, boom, I'm your girl. We're going to solve this, you know, worrying that. We are good. Yeah, I can feel that for sure. It's yeah, there's a flush. There's a there is that leaning forward to and I felt that even sharing with the example at the beginning. But I think that leaning forward is across the board for me. And all those like I'm jumping on the grenade kind of thing.

Nicole Lohse: 00:32:10

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thanks.

Kelly: 00:32:15

I can agree to the leaning forward. Definitely, I would say more. So now my people pleasing is like unsolicited advice. And they're surprising, you know, whatever else is in that realm. But it's almost like an uptick in my nervous system. So I can feel this surge of energy come through. I wouldn't necessarily say it feels like a dopamine hit, but maybe the entire interaction is a dopamine hit, because I'm so wrapped up. But afterwards, it feels like a burnout or a crash. And I definitely get some of that, like, Wait, what did I say? Or like, I don't remember anything. Anyone else said I don't remember sitting and listening and like receiving or taking in anything anyone else was doing. So that's kind of how it feels in my body. But it's definitely this heightened, like, sense of like, yeah, let me provide you the advice that you need. Who put me in charge of that? I don't know. But it feels like my duty in the moment. To help you know.

Nicole Lohse: 00:33:24

And I like what what you called it. Pamela? The Helper hit? Is that what you said? Yeah.

Pamela: 00:33:31

Helpers. Hi. Help us actually. It's a real thing. Yeah, a real neurological thing? Yeah.

Nicole Lohse: 00:33:37

Well, because it makes us feel alive, right? There's this temporary perception of aliveness, having purpose being needed being important. It's masking, it's probably the opposite experience of what we're avoiding feeling, right of the rejection of the lack of worth of lack of being on valuable it's like, Oh, I get this other thing. So let me get it wherever I can get it. And then this crash that you mentioned, Kelly, right, the crash that can happen after because it's coming from a place of survival. If I do this, then I'll be worthy or have purpose or people will like me, right? But I can only sustain it at that quality for a certain amount of time. I can't live my life like that, and so much energy output that boom, I crash afterwards.

Kelly: 00:34:31

At all, almost I would say for myself, like going into it. It comes from a place of like low self worth or like lack. And then afterwards, it's almost the shaming experience of why did I do that? Why did I say so much? Why did I give them unsolicited advice and then it turns into the shameful experience, and then you have that dip after? And then you're still left with those feelings of lack because you were attempting to source them from another versus yourself. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Nicole Lohse: 00:35:05

So so far semantically, we, Pamela, you've given us this, this thing to talk about about like, loop that Hi, you shift into, you go from, I don't know, you might even inquire for those listening as well, like, what do you notice before that? How are you experiencing yourself? And then there's this opportunity, and then you're into that high. Right? So there's a real shift in the experience of yourself. There's a shift in the nervous system state, there's a shift in how the physiology moves through the room, the behavior you find yourself in, there's a whole change in how you move from before being having this opportunity. And then you into the helper. Hi, there you are.

Pamela: 00:35:52

I would say that, no, when I first started to notice it, there's there's no consciousness around. There was no consciousness around. Why did I say this? Or, you know, why am I doing this? It was total compulsion. I just give you advice, because that's what I do.

Nicole Lohse: 00:36:17

On purpose in it, like I'm being helpful. I've got purpose here. And what Kelly shared around moving into more of the shame spiral, or what had Amanda had shared about her experience about moving into more punishment. Right? It's like, that wasn't even in your radar. It was more like, No, this is who I am. This is what I'm supposed to do. Yeah,

Pamela: 00:36:37

yeah. And I would say I experienced the somatic experience. And even when I was working, when I was working with you, I would tell you, you know, I get it experience. In my first chakra, shame. And so I started to, when I started working with you and noticing it in the body. Then, when I came back into the body, and it's almost like that was, you know, my body knew that, that that wasn't my, it wasn't my job to tell you how to live your life or offer you advice. But I didn't know.

Nicole Lohse: 00:37:20

There was a disconnect and under coupling in between, like, I got to do this, but the there was this missing information on like, Wait, that's not actually a genuine response here.

Pamela: 00:37:31

So it took me a while to figure out the clues. And then I, once I figured out the clues, I could interrupt the pattern, because I could feel the compulsion, like, oh, I want to tell you what to do. And once I do that, I'm gonna go into a shame spiral, I don't want to do that shame spiral. So I'm going to do nothing. And see, see where that goes. But the compulsion, particularly around the people closest to me, I still experience, I still experienced that. And I almost have to go like, hands off, you know, that allow, allow this moment to be what it is. And then if I'm invited, if someone invites me to give them advice, or, you know, just putting space between the stimulus and the response, but for sure, that understanding that my body signals was

Nicole Lohse: 00:38:41

really critical, allowed you to piece together more of the puzzle. Yeah. And what I want to point out and what you're sharing, and we can all kind of inquire into this is how the pattern unfolds. When we become more familiar with how the pattern unfolds, the more we can recognize the earlier stages of the pattern, and interrupt that process or interrupt that how that pattern unfolds. That's what you're greatly describing, right? It's like, oh, you notice the very first impulse to want to like, jump in and give advice or help out or do say yes, but it's that that shift that you make that you're very aware of, and you have found that ability to be in the space of that. For other people, it might not be until after you've done it where you're like reflecting on a right it's like Oh, there I was in my people pleasing again, where I totally shifted who I was to meet whoever was in the room to make sure that they would like me, and damn, I did that again. And here I am in my shame spiral and that's how that pattern holds. It's like, okay, I shift into being whoever I need to be based on who's in the room. And then after there's some flavors of manipulation Kelly, I'm kind of using your your example here. Alright. And there's this like, okay, Yeah, like I don't even really feel like I'm in my body. And again, Kelly, I'll get you to describe it in a sec. But how have you experienced it, but it's like, after that unfolds, I'm then in the shame. And you know, the disgust and disappointment and frustration. And that's kind of how that pattern unfolds. But we haven't heard yet from Kelly is like, well, what's the earlier pieces that indicate like, Ooh, I better change who I am based off who's in the room. And that's what I'm inviting us. One of the ways we can explore is like, what is that transition point that Pam loads so beautifully describing, of when I move into this pattern, and Kelly, anything you want to speak to about that I don't like the transition that happens there.

Kelly: 00:40:42

I can feel the transition pretty easily now. And it's, I'm able to recognize it, it is that uptick in my nervous system. I'm familiar with, like, the demographic in which I'm very triggered in people pleasing tendencies. And I would say that would probably be women my age, or women in general. So I, for example, if I'm invited to a dinner with a bunch of like, women, my age, like I can notice, like, maybe the morning, I'm, I'm feeling regulated, and I'm feeling okay, and then on the drive there, it's that uptick in my nervous system, which I haven't fully mastered on being able to down regulate myself. So I kind of just go with it at this point, but I'm aware that I'm in that state, I'm almost aware that I'm gonna probably do or say something that I'm going to feel ashamed about, or I'm gonna leave my body. But I've gotten to a point where it's like, okay, how do I love myself? Even in these moments? How do I tell myself afterwards, like, you're learning, healing is not linear, you're gonna, you know, it's going to be like this. And so, for me, just recognizing that I'm switching into that space has been huge. But that's what the work is, is like you keep unraveling and pulling things apart. Hopefully, you're getting to the point where like, you're able to recognize and not go fully into the vortex and fully into the pattern, I would say,

Nicole Lohse: 00:42:12

that makes sense. Totally makes sense. There's a few things I want to catch in what you just shared one being the ability to witness ourselves in our patterns. Even when we're in it. It's like, well, yeah, I'm doing it. Right. And, and we'll explore this a little bit here of like, how do I feel towards myself while I'm doing it, and this is where we can often have a lot of conflict, because we are frustrated or in ourselves for doing it, we're annoyed, we want to be different. Versus what you're describing Kelly is there's a little more space to just have love for yourself or have empathy for yourself for noticing a part of you has taken over and you're now just in that experience, right? That's different than shame spiraling later. There's more room, there's more room to be human and to do the things and the recognition, it takes time to untangle from these deep, deep, deep seated patterns.

Kelly: 00:43:12

Yeah, well, because that is it that people pleasing part is still a part of me. And I found myself either wanting to leave or doing a Wim Hof in the car, or deep breathing or doing some crazy meditation while I'm driving there. And it was like, why am I pushing? Like this car away so hard? Why? So I started speaking to myself, like, if you blushed tonight, that's okay. Like, you're still worthy. If you say something that you regret, that's okay, you're still worthy if you get really anxious and like do or say something that like you wish, whatever, like, how do I accept this space that I'm in? And I found that it almost makes it easier than more accepting of those parts that I am? Yeah, that's when there's that like big resistance and like trying to not acknowledge that and like that, it's becomes a little more tug of war internally. For me at least. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:44:08

there's that recognition that there's nothing to fix. There's a reason why that part is there. Right? And the more we can have an understanding of that, and I want to name that acceptance can sometimes be challenging. And if the acceptance isn't available, that it's more like well acknowledge that, you know, you're frustrated that you're doing it. It's kind of like a three part tear here. It's like, okay, here I am noticing my frustration that I'm doing the thing and then I'm also noticing the part of me that feels like it still has to do the thing. And the reason why it's doing the thing is because of some core trauma, belief, exiled part burden that I'm carrying, right. So to kind of see the layers allows us to just have even more space for just being human and being filled with all of these patterns. Absolutely. And

Kelly: 00:45:01

is there any small little thing I can do in this moment to show up for myself, so maybe that looks like holding my own hand under the dinner table, or going into the bathroom and looking in the mirror and saying, like, I love you, we got this, you're safe with me talking to my inner child, small little things like that, where it's like, all right, like, we're in this together good or bad. Like we're gonna make it through this, this survival pattern together. And it's going to be what it is. So,

Nicole Lohse: 00:45:31

yeah, so I want to offer one other tool that is harder to do. First off, it's harder to do things in the moment, when we're inquiring into our patterns. In the moment where we're, you know, in around the people and doing the thing, it's a lot challenging, a lot more challenging to be like, Oh, I'm going to try to unravel my pattern here and do something different. So finding these resources to support us in those situations are key. And then how do we support ourselves outside of that when we're doing our own reflecting. And one thing I love to do, because our brain only a part of our brain has a sense of time, is to play just with the idea of something. So something that stood out to me and what you shared Kelly is like, just the idea of meeting up with a group of women, boom, my system has a response, right? I don't even have to put myself in that environment to have a response, I can just think about it. And then I noticed how my physiology changes, I noticed there's a bit of nervousness present or, you know, you really start to feel how your body shifts in these dynamics, in more subtler ways, when we reflect on situations, or even just like the the idea of something, it can be so powerful, because it's a way for us to learn more of what's entangled and, and that to me, excites me because we can really titrate our way into our explorations and notice the nuances and start to support those nuances in a way where it can be relatively easy. Instead of like, always bumping heads with ourselves, and like getting caught up and trying to figure it out and trying to fix it. So that's an invitation I have for everyone's like, well, wherever you find yourself people pleasing, can you just think about a time when or reflect on an idea that is involved with that people pleasing environment? And then learn something about yourself just from the idea of it? So Amanda, if we even just use the idea of, you know, you having somewhere to be is there anything you notice, in your experience that the idea of like, Oh, I gotta be somewhere? What what happens, if anything? Um,

Amanda: 00:47:53

I feel like I already know that I'm going to be late. That is, that is a pattern. Is

Nicole Lohse: 00:48:01

there anything in this? This is where it gets a little tricky to sometimes notice. But in this moment, if you think about the rush, and knowing you're going to be late, is there anything you feel maybe in your heart rate or in your muscle tone? Or a sense of urgency in this moment? You might you might not?

Amanda: 00:48:22

Yeah, cuz that like, Oh, I gotta go somewhere. I'm going to be late. I don't like to be late. And so I do have like, a sensation in my chest and a little bit in my throat kind of a maybe it's like a pre emptive apology. I'm gonna be late. Yeah. Yeah, there is there is a little when sorry.

Nicole Lohse: 00:48:47

That's really cool is even just by pausing and noticing in this moment, how your physiology changes, because we've been doing a lot of reflecting on this call, right? And I'm inviting us to be like, Okay, wait, if we just think in this moment, what am I noticing, we have this response to pay attention to I know I can relate I'm, I'm blocked being late for things too. So I can in the reflection of like thinking, I've got somewhere to be, I can feel my heart rate increase a little bit more. I can feel like the the readiness to rush around. Even though I could leave myself all the time. I'm still going to shift into this rush around feeling so I can feel like I'm salivating a little bit right now. And my muscle tone is like amping up a little like, Yeah, let's go because it feels good to rush around like a mad person. Like, there's something there that really enjoys that rush. Well, another part doesn't might not like being late, right? So these there's, there's multiple experiences that I'm aware of in this moment. And that's what I'm inviting you to demonstrate for us is like a way even if I just reflect on that, just the idea have, you know, maybe being late and having to rush, something happens that's alive in this moment. And to me that that's like, the Golden Nugget to work with instead of thinking about what I would do. We learn so much more when we actually tune into what we're actually doing. Yeah, yeah,

Amanda: 00:50:21

it's, it's so wild. And I really feel like there's kind of a, there's opposing things. Because as much as I feel a lot of what you shared of the tensing the heart rate rising, like I even kind of look around like, Oh, we're leaving, and it's like, that's gotta get done. That's how so I feel tired. Like, there's a fatigue to it, too. So yeah, like a brace thing. You kind of brace for it. And you're gonna do it, you always figure out how to do it, you know. But then, like we've we've identified the burnout backlash. That's also a part of it, too.

Nicole Lohse: 00:51:05

So you're aware of both like the part of you that kind of kicks into gear, and wants to get all the things done kind of run around, rushing? Well, another parents like we'll have a braking system that's just exhausted and tired and is really challenged by this. This awesomeness that happens in this rush around. That happens. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Right. So I want to kind of propose this question. I know Kelly and Pamela, you kind of already know. So I'll propose it to Amanda. And then we'll kind of inquire a little further, just for other people to also inquire with this question I have. For you, Amanda, this part that is like rushing around and wants to get to all the to do things and get it all done to make sure everything else and everyone else is kind of taken care of. Before you leave? What is it afraid? What happened? What do you wear it? Because it's a part of you afraid will happen if you didn't do that? And just see if an answer naturally comes? I really enjoy this question. Sometimes there's an answer, sometimes it isn't, but it's just this recognition of the pattern that we have, what is it afraid would happen if that pattern wasn't there to help us out? Um,

Amanda: 00:52:22

well, so I don't live with any other humans, I live with animals. So I am afraid that I'll leave something out that the dogs will get into that maybe could be detrimental. Or is a value or kind of that feeling of coming home to something that you left out that you wish that you would have taken care of. So I guess kind of like a disappointment to myself. There's a fear of that and a fear of something bad happening to the animals that are here.

Nicole Lohse: 00:53:06

So there's the logistics of what could happen but then I'm hearing like a flavor of the disappointment. So can you in this moment even notice the difference in between the rush and the Go, go? Go? Need to get it all done. And then this other feeling of a disappointment of not getting it done?

Amanda: 00:53:24

Yeah, that feels heavy that feels like just kind of on my shoulders. It feels heavy. It feels a little shallow breath kind of which feels a little bit like the fatigue that I can recall. It feels like I don't have any steam left. You know, I've burned it all up. So who's gonna take care of this? Yeah, that's what I that's what I pick up.

Nicole Lohse: 00:53:57

Yeah. And to me, there's something deeper in the disappointment that can be inquired into, right like if if you kind of noticed that the doing the rush that go to take care of all the animals and everything else before you leave is kind of helping you not feel the heaviness of this disappointment. My sense is there's probably some deeper layers that that are entangled in the disappointment. I don't want to make too many guesses right now that's something you can inquire into but can you feel what I mean? Like the disappointment is kind of the entryway into some more core pieces of why the pattern exists.

Amanda: 00:54:39

Yeah, big time and I have looked into this some this is opening my eyes a whole lot. But I know that I don't have to look real far actually just had a conversation with a girlfriend about this. It was actually about like my house, the efficiency the way that I run my house. I have my mom to think for that, and you know, as a child, it wouldn't have been two thumbs up. This is awesome. I would love to load the dishwasher again. But now, I can see it as a gift. And having control of that throttle, you know that not everything has to be just so before you leave the house, to the degree that you sacrifice getting yourself grounded, clothed, showered all the things that I'm a priority, as well. So it

Nicole Lohse: 00:55:42

sounds like there's room for you to create more space, similar to how Pamela has shared of like, oh, that place where you shift into that urgent, like, won't get it done, won't get it done, won't get it done. And starting to find the choice point. They're like, Oh, wait, if I don't get this done, I might then have to feel this disappointment. And there's a summat there's a real felt sense, somatic sense to that disappointment that I want to invite all of us into, because I'm pretty sure we can. Most people can relate to disappointment, but it's like, oh, I want to load the dishwasher to avoid feeling the disappointment. Right? Or I want to right, there's this like, Oh, I'm understanding the pattern and why it's there a little bit more. And now with some more space and seeing the pattern and why it's there. I'm starting to find more choice might not always be there. Right. But that's a place where there might be room for choice.

Amanda: 00:56:38

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I recently, I Googled it. So I don't know that this exists because nothing really came up. Toxic optimism. I was on a call with Kate and friends and needing to identify kind of this. And it was just like Pamela like you said the time thing. Like I have seemingly endless time for all of the other stuff. Except for me. And it is short lived. I foster puppies. I think I can take all the puppies asked me how I'm feeling a month and a half into it. I don't want any more puppy. It's yeah, it's very much an upfront thing. And yeah, pausing to evaluate all of it. And again, me being a part of all of it. Because it's not sustainable. It's not I got shingles in March. And I've learned a lot from that. Like it is not. It was that was a huge eye opener for me. Huge, huge. So yeah, having a voice in it.

Nicole Lohse: 00:57:51

And what what I find really helpful and recognizing and Pamela you shared with us in this as well as like, you know that the loading the dishwasher the urgency of doing it, that's more of a survival pattern, versus the gift your mom gave you of like, make sure the dishwasher is loaded? How can that be just a genuine loading the dishwasher without any consequences entangled with it if I don't do it in this moment, right. So or the other end of the spectrum is like, fuck it, I'm never gonna do load the dishwasher. Right? So it's kind of like seeing ourselves on that spectrum of like, okay, I have to load the dishwasher or else or not screw it, I'm, I'm never doing that. And no one Don't tell me what to do, or, you know, whatever, when slaver might be on that end of the spectrum. But then there is the healthy relationship we have with keeping our space clean and, and loading the dishwasher because we load the dishwasher not because I get to die if I don't or experience extreme disappointment, and like I'm not worthy, because I don't, right or extreme extreme self righteousness, because don't tell me what to do on the other end of the spectrum, right? So to notice the quality in which we're doing our things, and then to be like, Oh, that's still has flavors of survival. And okay, well, it kind of makes sense that there's still survival patterns here or flavors of survival to it. Because I haven't quite gotten to the core and shifted and transformed the many layers that are involved in why I need these patterns. Right. And that, to me is what's more important than like, heal your trauma and get through it all. You know, it's like No, first, how can we have grace for the ways we show up in the world? Because it's in that grace that we create the space to then move towards our trauma and to shift the burdens we carry and work with our exiled parts with more empathy and more space, instead of just like, Oh, I'm just this entangled mess and how do I navigate it all? And so I want to invite us as we're kind of shifting into wrapping up here is like, how do we know? Or how do we bring awareness to the fact that the core is our trauma or burdens or survival patterns. Then we have all these, excuse me, the core is the trauma, the burdens, are exiled parts. And then we have our survival patterns that are helping us navigate our life. So in this context, we're talking about some of our people pleasing patterns. And then we have how we feel towards those patterns, right, which Kelly has expressed to really beautifully like this love and acceptance. And what I also want to kind of invite us to recognize in that place where we're noticing how we feel towards our survival patterns, as soon as there's a flavor of us trying to fix it, or if there's an agenda of any kind, like, because I could have acceptance, but deep down, I dammit, I just want that pattern to be different. Right. So that acceptance, it might, you know, be tricky, because it looks like I'm just accepting my survival patterns. But really, I just want it to be different, right. And this is where the next piece comes in. And this is what I'd like to invite us all to do. And this, to me is the ongoing practice, of how do I pan out even more, and acknowledge all the layers that are at play. So I acknowledge how I feel towards my survival patterns, and acknowledgement survival patterns, and that they're there for a reason. And the more we understand the reason, the easier it is to have grace for this, and that the core is our trauma. So just in this moment, if we kind of, you know, the four of us pan out, and anyone listening pans out. And in my survival guide, I have a step by step process of like how to, let's see these layers, but to just pan out to give yourself the opportunity to see that you're human, and you have this judgment or this agenda or wanting to fix who you are, while also who you are, is there for a reason rooted in survival, and also rooted in many other things. And then at the core is that trauma, anything anyone wants to reflect about kind of just panning out and seeing the layers that are at play,

Pamela: 01:02:12

all offer, that, really, my life hasn't changed at all. It's how I perceive my life. It just goes moment by moment experience by experience, making new choices. And so that panning out that you described, and I think I did in one of your workshops, we did an exercise where we put our hands out, and then we open them up. And notice what changed in the body. And it's like, so much more happens just from that expansion.

Nicole Lohse: 01:02:51

Yeah, this is the overuse of expansion and contraction. Yeah,

Pamela: 01:02:55

yeah. And And for sure, for myself, I could say that. No, I was, if I was doing something and said yes to it, I was like, I was doing it with this laser focus, no, kind of getting the next and then go to the next thing and laser focus. But in the expanded view, I can consider all parts I can consider. What do I need in this moment in this experience? Is this you know, what does the other person really need? Are they inviting me so the expansive part the pausing and, and expanding to take in multiple perspectives and sort of consider and that feels in my body that feels very calming, like I can feel myself in the space? And I don't, it's not the same compulsion, to the that, that that narrow that narrowness? I don't know if that was the answer to your question, but

Nicole Lohse: 01:03:58

that's the ground sir. My only addition to the question is in this moment, how do you notice the expansiveness? How do you notice panning out? Yes,

Pamela: 01:04:10

for me, it's, it's kind of like an organic thing. In the pause, I have, I have these boundaries that I that I dropped down, if I feel myself going towards the compulsion, I will literally in my mind, envisage this my luminous energy field and just drop that down around me to to kind of like a like a ball of jelly.

Nicole Lohse: 01:04:43

So in this moment, Pamela, are you aware of panning out in this moment? Can you feel the need for the dropping down even because the dropping down could be a form of protection potentially, in this moment, if You imagine yourself panning out? And even acknowledging that the drop down might be important sometimes. All you don't have the answer. But just notice in this moment, how panned out, are you? And how much? Are you seeing the layers that are at play? In this moment? You can come back to answer it unless there's something there in this moment that you want to answer. Kelly or Amanda, anything you notice, with this idea of panning out or this experience of panning out, maybe

Kelly: 01:05:33

I think I was thinking of something else before touching on that, that sometimes it can feel really difficult to have compassion for some of these parts. And something that's helped me is like, viewing them as like small versions of myself, you know, by looking at childhood pictures or putting a baby picture of me on my phone, it's really easy to feel more like compassion and love for these parts that probably generated or came to be, or started building around the time of when you were a child. So that has been really helpful for me to feel more compassionate. And it's been really interesting, as I've unraveled some of these parts you can really go from like not being aware of the pattern, and being in the vortex and being like, oh, man, I did it again, to feeling like when you're doing something out of a survival pattern, or when you're doing something because you want to do it, and because it makes you feel good, that it's that process has been like very beautiful and interesting for me because you can really like, the more you unravel it, the more you get in touch with your intuition. And the more you can feel like, Oh, I'm I'm over giving in this situation, I'm bringing a bunch of food, I'm baking nice cakes, because I want to and because this brought me joy. Versus I'm doing this because I want everyone at the lake house to think I'm the coolest and best chef or whatever else. So I want them to just add that.

Nicole Lohse: 01:07:03

Really love that. Anything. You also want to reflect on this idea of panning out in this moment right now and kind of seeing the many layers that are at play for you and your human experience and many ways to navigate life. And yeah,

Kelly: 01:07:20

it feels like there's a lot It feels very layered. But it feels like different versions, the versions have changed, the more conscious and aware I've become. And it's less about pushing away and disgust towards these parts. And then the I would say the expansiveness feels almost like, I want to put my arms out like a holding of it all. That's what it feels like for me, which is not always easily accessible. But that's how I would explain it is like the answer about pushing away, which feels more narrow. It's this like, these, this is me and all my parts. That's what the expansiveness feels like.

Nicole Lohse: 01:08:05

Right? Thanks. I'm just kind of really pushing this question on, like, in this moment, because even those people listening it, it can be challenging to access this experience of like panning out and holding the many layers at play, and not being in the layer that feels like I have to be doing something or fixing something, or, you know, answering the question in a certain way, whatever showing up. Right? It's more like, there's a real sense of spaciousness that we can land on, but that's not always easy. And so that's why I'm kind of pushing this question a little bit more, because I want to invite more curiosity of like, how do we pan out to really see and hold the many layers at play? Because that experience is so rich. So Amanda, anything you want to name around this? I know we haven't worked together before. So this is a newer concept for you or practice for you or experience for you. Anything you're noticing in this moment around that?

Amanda: 01:09:09

Yeah, this is new for me. And because of that and feeling at first, I thought the term would be overwhelmed but I think bombarded and not necessarily in a negative way, but I have just I call them lightning bolts. I've had so many lightning bolts in the course of this conversation just even like we were saying the terms that we're using. So I'm feeling bombarded but it's it's stuff that I want to sit with that I want to let percolate more to get to where I really understand it for me because another sensation, a cue that I can step into people pleasing is that sensation of being swept away. an ungrounded like Pamela said, and I know what it's like to feel the opposite of that to be grounded to have I think paneles said the jelly shield. And it's it's tasty. It's really tasty. So right now, I feel bombarded which feels a little uncomfortable. So I feel a little like tingly on my skin a little flush. But not overrun, either. Like, because it is not linear, as we said, and this is a spiritual being having a human experience. I'm very much I'm very much on board with that. So yeah, bombarded but allowing it. Yeah, I'm feeling

Nicole Lohse: 01:10:55

I appreciate you naming that instead of people pleasing and giving me a different answer. And what I want to name is like, I I'm sure you're not alone. So those listening like, No, we're having some pretty rich conversations. And the amount of digesting that can happen through these these calls, or through the podcast is rich, like it's rich, rich food we're digesting here. And to give yourself all the time to just take little nuggets of what you're digesting or making sense of. And I love what you named demand of like, find your own perspective in this right. And that's one of my big intentions is for people to deepen their awareness of their own perspective of their experience that we're not here just saying, This is how it is. And this is how you should work with it and follow these three steps, right? It's like, no, like, take this, take this conversation and notice what landed and let that sit and let that brew and let that find shape in your own way. So that you can continue to find your own deepening and understanding of who you are and how it is you navigate this this world. So I appreciate your naming that big time. With the expansive

Kelly: 01:12:13

question. I feel like it was hard to access it first. And I sat with it for a second. And it feels like a like floating and like a loss of control. I think I don't feel comfortable with this concept of the expansiveness, that is kind of what's coming up for me. Love that. Kelly,

Nicole Lohse: 01:12:32

I love that you're starting to notice that a little bit more. Because that That, to me is so so rich in the recognition of like how we need to go slow. And when we open up into more of our trauma vortexes, we're also opening up into the depth of the counter vortexes. So what do I mean by that it's like, as we dip into what we're still stuck surviving, we also have the opportunity to dip more into the human experience and the richness of that. And that we have to go slow into both. Because there's often entangled pieces with it all and I have one of my episodes, I think it's episode seven, I talked about like over coupling under coupling or how things are untangling, entangled or missing. And what you're describing is a very normal experience to have where it's like, oh, for me to expand actually equals losing control. Right, and this is why I have to people, please, I have to have all my resources, I have to have all my survival patterns in place to make sure I'm not losing control. So that's part of this process of like recognizing our edges and playing within the edges that where it's okay to still have control, but know that beyond that there's some fear and that's okay. And that's the edge I'm gonna walk on. Everything that expands, also contracts. And the more we notice that rhythm of the human experience, and Pamela, you were referring to that, right, this expansion and the contraction, but the more we really tune into both of those experiences, the more we're able to play with those edges of perceiving lost control and recognizing we can move through the discomfort of that and be okay until we meet the next edge that is around losing control. So thank you for naming that. Kelly. Anything else before we sign off and live in the sun? Yeah,

Pamela: 01:14:36

I just want to the word control is pending, very, very important to me in my recovery from people pleasing, recognizing that and what you said about edges, that my edges were the things that I did, because I had no sense of self and my Now my edge is my jelly is myself. Yes, it is protection sometimes from the impulse. But yeah, I just want to support the conversation around feeling in control as a way of defining myself, and the practice that I cultivated, is letting go of everything and anything. In fact, I don't believe I have control, you know, over anything. And when I let go, it opens to the infinite possibility of things, versus what I think will happen or is happening, you know, so it's a practice of a kind of a faith that life well, is always working for me. Yeah, I can, I can lean I can let go and, and being in it and, and feel safe. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 01:16:04

I love it. And I want to name the spectrum for those that are listening and can relate to what Pamela is speaking to, because I think that spectrum is really important. When it comes to control one end of the spectrum, we need control to feel okay. On another end of the spectrum, we can have this perception of like, I don't need any control. And it's more the bypassing flavor, or just like whatever, versus this mid range, you're speaking to a little bit more right of like, I surrender to not needing control. And it has a different quality than the bypassed collapse, like, whatever, it's all going to work out right or that I need control to be okay. So I just wanted to name name another spectrum with that, that share Pamela and just for us to be curious on where might we fall on that spectrum? Do we need control to feel okay? Are we like, whatever, I don't need any control. It all happens as it happens, or is there a grounded sense of that's like, surrender to what is and they all feel slightly different. So just to notice where we might each fall on that spectrum. So I love that Pamela and the jolliness that's there with it. That sense itself, I gotta get visual. Wonderful. Thank you so much for the three to the three of you for joining and for those listening for being willing to also inquire and get to know yourselves a little bit more. Yeah, reach out if there's questions. I mean, I love geeking out about this stuff in so many ways, and hopefully there's enough to digest that doesn't feel overwhelming.