Get Curious - Staying Small | 032

Nicole Lohse: 00:00:00

This episode is for those of you who find yourself staying small, you're someone who wants to take up space. You want to express yourself, you want to offer what it is you have to offer, yet you're met with some sort of resistance. You feel yourself, feeling like you have to hide, feeling like it's not safe enough to speak up, feeling like it's not okay to be seen. If this speaks to you, if you can resonate, then this episode is for you. I'm joined by Julie Hughes, and the two of us explore our patternings that are rooted in needing to stay small, and we do some explorations around the edges of what shows up when we play with this idea of taking up a bit more space, or what shows up in these realms of where we're comfortable, and how can we play with understanding our survival patterns a little bit more by actually panning out and seeing more of the ancestral impact and how our intergenerational trauma might be influencing the reasons why we play small and stay small. I also offer up a little exploration on how you can play with your actual physical body in the realms of getting small and taking up space to help you understand more of what shows up. So if you want to get curious, I encourage you to have a listen, follow along and see how what Julie and I share can help you in understanding your own patterning a little bit more, and help you to also maybe ride some waves and discover how you like Julie, find a way to actually take up more space and reprogram the way your brain and your body relate to this idea of taking up space. So have a listen and see where it takes. You. A big thank you to Julie for being willing to play with those edges ride some ways, and I'm so stoked that there's more space for us all to take up. And I'm excited for all of you to have a listen and to see what happens when you play in these realms of taking up more space. For me, staying small is something that I've been navigating for a really long time, so I'm excited to have you be willing enough to not stay small to actually join me today, Julie, so thank you for being here.

Unknown: 00:02:30

Yeah, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:02:31

if I stay small and I don't have to show up, it's fine.

Julie: 00:02:35

I mean, the dilemma was in the like request was like, do I respond? Because if I don't respond, I'm staying small, but if I do, then I'm, yeah, breaking out of that. So

Nicole Lohse: 00:02:45

yeah, exactly. And that's something I want to invite people listening into, is like, recognize where those edges are, where we hold ourselves back, and when do we have the capacity to actually challenge those edges or explore those edges, versus, oh no, I need to stay small here, because this feels like too much. So I'm glad that this didn't feel like too much. Yeah,

Julie: 00:03:06

and a large part of it is because it's you,

Nicole Lohse: 00:03:10

thank you. That's a big part of it feeling safe enough to play with those edges, for sure. So something I want to speak to first is like there are many parts of us at one time, and like both of us have the ability to be here to, you know, be practitioners, to show up, to be seen, yet there's other parts of us that are like, end that scariest book. Hell no. I'm going to stay small. I'm going to stay hidden. And that's what I really want to invite us, and those listening to explore is like to recognize that a big part of you might be like, I have so much to offer, and I want to be seen, and I want to put myself out there where something else is, like, hard, no breaks on, that's too risky. And what we're playing with ultimately, is like, how do we work as a team with these parts of us so that we can explore those edges in a way where it doesn't feel like a life threat to the part that is like, this is too much, while also honoring this feeling we might have of like, wanting to show up and wanting to offer What we have to offer. So I think that's important to name for us, to see the many parts at play. Because my guess is you, too, have this part of you that does want to be seen, that does want to so let's speak to that first for the fun of it. You know, the part of you that does have something to offer, that wants to be seen, that wants to take up space. What do you notice about that?

Julie: 00:04:41

Yeah, I guess first of all, right, now I notice all parts, they're all present with me in this moment. I figured so much, yeah, I could feel them even bringing

Nicole Lohse: 00:04:52

attention to the part that wants to stand up. Makes me a little louder. Like, yeah, they're

Julie: 00:04:56

just like, like, the, you know, they're all. Will show rear in their heads. They're beautiful, lovely heads. But I think what I'm as you were talking, what I was reflecting on was that what feels different for me, that maybe in the past, like I wouldn't have said yes to to an interview like this. What feels different is I feel like there's a container for all those parts, right? Like that. They're all kind of being held in, in this container of safety, or even if I'm feeling a little anxious and my heart rate's going up, or I'm nervous, like nothing bad's actually happening, like I'm okay, right? So, so I guess something feels a bit neutralized, and then that part that you're naming, the part of me that wants to show up and be seen or be heard or whatever right like, or knows that I have some degree of professionalism that I can provide, or skill or whatever is like, the fear is also getting translated into like, excitement. So those, yeah, so the both those parts are there, and they're almost like, equal right now, right? Like, yeah, cool. I like it.

Nicole Lohse: 00:06:09

I like that. Yeah, for me, when I'm in a container with, like, someone I know, or when I'm in my groups or anything like that, like, it's so much easier to be in that space of, like, oh, I can take up space here and be okay. So I'm noticing that with you, that sense of like, oh, I can take up space. And then when I think bigger, of like, and people are listening, then there's this, then the other part gets louder.

Julie: 00:06:35

What do I sound like? And what are you thinking? Yeah. Your response, yeah, totally,

Nicole Lohse: 00:06:39

so I relate, I can relate to you with that container in a few different ways, both the container I hold for my many different parts, but also the container you and I are holding, and how that creates a sense of safety for us to, you know, show up together in these edges, whereas, yeah, when I think Beyond that container, that's when the other parts get louder. For me, it's like, oh, I can feel them. They're there. But if I just think of a smaller container in between you and I, it's like, Yeah, we're good,

Julie: 00:07:11

yeah. If we were in a live audience right now, you know, like, like The Oprah Winfrey Show, I would just be either completely mute or rambling, because that would feel really intimidating to have everyone's actual eyes on me, right, like that. So yeah, to your point, this feels a lot safer, safer because there's this small container that we're working within, and then a bigger that's, yeah, less visible in this moment,

Nicole Lohse: 00:07:35

exactly, exactly. So as long as I don't put our attention too wide, and it's okay, we don't think about Stan being on stage with Oprah. We're good and like, you name, like, Thank goodness for our survival patterns of being able to still navigate situations like that where it's like, well, then I'll just shift into like, I'm disconnected from myself, but I can talk really fast and I can just ramble and tell you all the things, or I'm utterly frozen and can't talk at all. Right? So that's the joys of doing this work, I feel, is like recognizing these different layers that show up. And how do we start to get curious about these layers that are there so we can untangle more of what's at the core of it all, so that there is a bigger container for us to actually show up. And like you said, you know, in the past, there's no way that this would have been doable. And this is something I think is important to recognize where it's it's not just like, yeah, wave the magic wand and everything's different. And now you can, you know, take up space and not be afraid and do whatever it's like, layer by layer, there's more room to be able to show up. Yeah, and what's cool is weave in a way named the smaller container, which allows us to feel more safe, which for me, I feel myself softened. I feel myself more connected with you when I tune into that smaller container in between the two of us, and then when I tune into the big air container, I can feel my spine get a bit more rigid. I put on more of a performance act like and I want to invite those listening to think about the same thing, like, where do you feel safe to show up and to take up space, and then what's that transition and that shift? So do you want to share a little bit about for you, if we think outside of this container? And I mean, we talked about stage, you know, on the stage, because

Julie: 00:09:33

she takes the philosophy,

Nicole Lohse: 00:09:35

yeah, yeah, which can sometimes holds a sense of safety for some people, but it can also be again, yeah, bigger picture. So what I'm drawn to, for both of us to first explore, is that transition from like feeling safe enough to take up some space, to what happens when it feels like a risk. There's something that indicates more alarm bells for us, and there's. Thing that's perceived as a threat, and then our physiology changes. So what do you notice in that contrast?

Julie: 00:10:07

Yeah, I can. I'm certainly experiencing that as you're talking and then I'm like, I'm tracking my nervous system. So when I think of a larger container we were in a live auction, it's instant, like, arousal and the fear response, right? I'm like, the, yeah, just the sympathetic rising, also feeling like dry mouth, you know, which I imagine, if, like, that's where the the lack of being able to speak would occur, you know, just just, I'm really, to your point, I can really picture and feel that edge, and it's kind of like, it's not a solid edge, it's sort of, yeah, it's like a contraction and then an expansion. It's it's got some movement to it, but I know when I'm on on the other side of it, where it feels like beer and something bad's gonna happen, as opposed to when I can, like, be in the small container with you, connect. Remember the safety. It's like, No, it's all good, like, you're you're safe, you're okay. And then yeah, so yeah, it kind of has, like a an echo, if that makes sense, or Yeah, yeah, an echo.

Nicole Lohse: 00:11:18

Totally, totally, an echo. And the ability to shift in between those, like, there's almost a natural pendulating happening, of like, a little bit out there coming back in, little bit of there coming back in.

Unknown: 00:11:31

Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:11:32

I can relate to that too. So I want to invite both of us to even play with this for a second, and anyone that's listening that can relate to this transition you make from being, you know, in a space where it feels like you can take up some space, to that edginess, where there's some riskiness, if we even just take a moment to play, like, moving towards the riskiness and then back into the smaller container. Like, for me, it feels like, yeah, it's like present here, I feel us both, and then I feel that me disconnecting from you, a little similar to you. Heart rate increases a little a little more, hyper vigilance comes online of like looking around, and then I can come back into connection with you. And it just this is something that we learn in Spanish. Experiencing with both Julie and I are Sonic experiencing practitioners. Is this dance in between, like that we naturally do in between, like, oh, the edge of scary, or a little bit activating to back into connection. And when we learn to listen to our body, we can really find these edges where there's this natural shifting that's occurring, and when we notice that, that's an opportunity where we can actually ride through a little wave, or be in an experience without it feeling like too scary, oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. And sometimes, after something like that, our container, our ability to take up more space, gets bigger. And I'm talking because I know you and I are both playing in those edges, like as you speak, yeah, as I'm thinking, and hopefully those listening are also kind of aware of that shift that can actually happen, or we can make it happen, where we think about the edge, we come closer to it, or we settle back in to where we feel sense of connection is a place where we can, you know, be a little more present, and then I'm consciously shifting versus us, like pendulating A little in that, like echo that you talked about,

Julie: 00:13:33

yeah, yeah. I think one thing that's coming up for me as you were talking with around these edges, is that it like, like, my relationship to discomfort has changed, right? So, like, even though, like, yes, when I go to that bigger place and expand and into the fear, it's like, it's not comfortable, you know, like that never feels good. And yet, what's different for me is that the discomfort isn't automatically hooked into a story, automatically hooked into that heightened fear that like something bad, something horrible. Like, there's an ability in that to be like, yeah, it's a little uncomfortable, but I'm like, it's okay to feel this like it, you know? So there actually feels like there's room and space to still be, like, present in my body and talking to you and feel the discomfort, as opposed to like in the past that would have, like, rocket launched me out of my body into paralysis or wherever, right? Yeah, or into talking really fast. We're into talking really fast, but totally in a disembodied way, right? Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:14:45

yeah, amazing. I love it, yeah. That's so great. That's what I love about this work, is it's so subtle, but also so profound, the impacts it can have in just really building. Our capacity and showing us that the threat that we once perceived is actually no longer there.

Julie: 00:15:08

The tiger is actually a kitten or something exactly,

Nicole Lohse: 00:15:11

exactly. Yeah. All right, so we could stay with this, but I want to almost shift gears a little and look at it from a slightly different perspective, where, you know, we've played a little with pausing and noticing how we're experiencing ourselves in this staying small, we're well aware of our edges and what shows up there, and we brought some curiosity to that. But I almost want to look at the bigger picture, because at least this has been my experience, and I'm guessing yours, and I know many other people as well that this experience of staying small often feels intergenerational or even from past lives for those that work in those realms, and I want to almost pan out a little to Take some time to recognize the bigger picture of the patterns we have that keep us within our edges of what feels safe and comfortable, and what we're speaking to here is being seen taking up space, whatever that may look like, because it can look like so Many different things. I want to shift it by us. I mean, for me, when I acknowledge the history that's involved in me staying small, I feel a lot more spaciousness and grace for my experience of it. Anything you want to name around as we shift gears into that.

Julie: 00:16:40

It's interesting. I almost initially felt more like pressure than spaciousness, maybe the pressure of the like, the lineage, right, like that. Oh yeah, yeah. And I can shift out of that, but it feels like it's weighted. What's Yeah, you know, yeah. This has a history to it.

Nicole Lohse: 00:17:01

Yeah. Can you describe that a bit more? And the weightedness? Does it feel like their weight or pressure on you to do, do different or, yeah, how would you describe that weight? A little

Julie: 00:17:13

question. Um, and again, I think the pressure I'm looking like, I'm looking at it now I'm like, it's not, it's not that it's good or bad, right? Again, it's just a temptation or or a visual for me. But it also there is, I think, because of how far back it goes intergenerationally, particularly with the women right in my family line, um, oppressive interaction is the like, what I'm what I'm contending with, right? And I don't want to say fighting up against, because I don't feel like I have to fight it, but it's like that going big or being seen and taking up space often comes with a bit of that backlash, which I guess is what the pressure feels like. The pressure is to stay small, because it's so deeply rooted with safety, yeah, and beyond mine, right? Like even, could have even been life or death safety at some point, yeah. 100%

Nicole Lohse: 00:18:10

Yeah, yeah. I like it so, so almost like you're getting a flavor of the pressure that, or the pressure we're speaking more somatically, not the there was probably pressure, peer pressure, that entangled in it too, for the sensation of pressure that probably has been felt for generations, and the awareness of of the impact of that. Yeah, this question keeps coming up, so I want to ask it, because I find that it can be helpful. Sometimes information comes through. I know, for me, it's, I've had a lot of intergenerational stuff show up, and I'll just sit with an experience, and then, boom, there it is. And it's, information comes through, and it's like, then I'll work with it, how I know how to work with it, from, you know, threat response cycle. And in a way, what I'm always curious about is, what's the root of this, like, how far back did this? First, the pressure of staying small and the somatic feeling of I need to stay small, stay quiet, stay hidden. See if there's an answer to this, if there, if that pressure had a story to tell, on where it originated from or on, you know, anything it wants to share, on why it wants to be like this? Is there anything that shows up?

Julie: 00:19:36

Um, the first sort of thought that comes to mind, which isn't fully formed thought. So there could be some

Nicole Lohse: 00:19:43

that's usually normal when it's coming from so far away. It's like

Julie: 00:19:47

time travel for a minute there no Exactly. I think the flavor of it is. It has to do with like so it's personal safety, like staying small is often. A, you know, a good, a pretty good way to, like, keep yourself alive in some, you know, I think of animals that do that. I picturing like a hedgehog, or any, you know, snail, or any animal that can kind of hide inwards and and blend in to their environment, right, like it has pretty good chance of survival, rather than if it like, you know, hooks its head out and, yeah, is more vulnerable to being exposed. So there's that piece. And then the other part, again, that's not a fully formed thought it, but it's showing up in my so maybe it's coming from somewhere is in protection of others. So I don't know exactly, you know, I'm curious about that, but there's a sense of like, and maybe, maybe I don't know, there's a maternal aspect to that, I'm not sure, but it just, it really feels like it's not just my safety. There's a way in which, yeah, yeah, I love connected to others, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:20:59

I love it. And this is where it's like, we don't necessarily need to know, but we're getting more of an understanding of why the pattern exists, right? So it's like, okay, this isn't just about from a biological perspective of like, play small so that you're safe for survival. It's like, how do we also play small or be small or be quiet for the protection of others, and even that piece of information gives us a more of an understanding of the pattern and the reason why it's there, right? And that's why I think it's it can be. Some people might have received an answer from that kind of question. Other people might not. It's like a way for us to inquire into why the pattern exists, however old it is, and it allows us to get more insight of like, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. And our relationship with the pattern can start to change. And when we see that bigger picture, I know for me, I think that's where that that spaciousness, exists, it's like, oh, it's easy for me to see the bigger picture. And also, I've done the work with some ancestral stuff where I'm like, Okay, are there more layers down? There's still more layers. But like, sometimes something that's been really cool for me, when I work through ancestral pieces, there's this, this shift that happens where it's almost like I feel like they have my back after that, like we're in it together. And it's like, Okay, now we can do this differently now, because the threat that existed then no longer exists and and we can be in this like, yeah. It literally feels like I got an army behind me, just like, Oh, yeah. Now it's my own stuff getting in the way of me showing up. I

Julie: 00:22:44

can't blame it on them anymore. I

Nicole Lohse: 00:22:45

can't blame it on them anymore, damn it. But yeah, my invitation there for those listening is like, Oh, how can you look at this pattern of staying small and just hold the bigger picture and our awareness and inquire. Like, is there any information that wants to come through about the origin, or anything that wants to be seen around this? Because it just allows us to hold it with a different awareness and a different attention and and a different intention, even of like, okay, I see how important it was then,

Julie: 00:23:19

or, like, compassion I guess I'm having, and I'm getting bits of information coming to me now, like, oh, it could be this. It could be that, you know, there's just, yes, there's just ways. And I know the story doesn't matter as much, and it's like, but I cannot, I can zoom out, as you said, and it creates more spaciousness. And then it's like, well, of course, like, yeah, this pattern makes sense, because you could have risked your life or your your family's life, if you were an outspoken opinionated woman in the 18th century, I don't know right exactly 100%

Nicole Lohse: 00:23:51

and this is I love, that more information is coming through for you. Because to me, when we open ourselves up to the possibility of it, it's like that information does want to come through, to piece together the puzzle, more, to help transform the belief that's still in ourselves, that you know, what they had to do has to be done. Still today,

Julie: 00:24:13

it almost, for me, the what the feeling is around it, I guess, is it's like an unfreezing, right? Maybe that's the piece too. Like, when we're frozen, we don't have access to that information, yeah, or it's cut off. And so, like, yeah, I keep getting this image of, like, a thawing. And I actually had this image with my grandmother in a dream where she was I was pushing her in her wheelchair, because she was in a wheelchair towards the end of her life, and I was pushing her through slush, and it was so, like, it was so telling, and it was just this little moment we shared, and she was smiling with me, and it only occurred to me afterwards where I'm like, yeah, like, the slush is melting. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a similar but then, like, I'm getting that feeling of the warmth, and growing up in Montreal, that time of year, in the spring, where everything started to thaw or unthaw, I should say, right, or thought, yeah, like warm. And maybe to your point, that reassurance where there's more access to, like, another resource, even right, like these relationships, these people, or people I may have never met, but that, you know, I'm in relationship with something now, and it's not, um, yeah, it's not just me alone in the in the terror, or whatever it might have originally been,

Nicole Lohse: 00:25:36

yeah, yeah, yeah, totally Yeah. It's so cool. Can you tell also as that's happening, if the space you take up is almost increasing a little as that thawing is happening, as that warming is happening?

Julie: 00:25:51

Yeah? Because thematically, if I'm tracking it, it's like I can feel a difference in my voice. It's not as like quivering, and I actually can feel like a warmth. So the previous sensation of what I was feeling more of like a fear, anxiety response is now a much more like, centered, grounded, but almost like whereas before I wasn't really feeling my my chest, now I'm like, really feeling it, and it feels very the energy has just shifted something that's a lot more pleasant. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:26:27

I feel, yeah. It's literally like you can take up more space. It's like you're more integrated, more here, yeah, shoulders broader. There's more presence. There's more of a landing of like, Here I am, yeah, yeah. It's like, another layer has shifted thought, and there's more of you that can now be integrated to be here. Yeah, it's so cool. And that's, you know, all we did was kind of hold space, of for the bigger picture, for information to come through. And it's kind of like, oh, and the puzzle pieces come into play, and there's a deeper understanding, and there's a there's a wave ridden, and something shifts. And it's like, how the hell did you describe that physiology

Julie: 00:27:09

response? It's actually

Nicole Lohse: 00:27:15

like the story that lies in your cells that taking up a little more space for yourself or for others was way too dangerous. And just by acknowledging it and creating a bit of space to see it, it's like, oh

Julie: 00:27:30

yeah. Well, it feels Yeah. It's like, it's releasing. There's more, less contraction, more of a nice, warm, spreading feeling. So yeah, great. Yeah.

Nicole Lohse: 00:27:45

Before we started recording, we talked about, like, the ease of this, right? Like, how we can work in a way where this can be playful, where it can be easy, where it can doesn't have to be so much effort, so much work, or like, and this is where I want to bring in this layer that how we feel towards our patterns, which has already shifted. For you, there's more compassion for the need to be small. I find we can get so caught up. I'm saying we as a general statement, in this place where we're frustrated with our patterns, where we just want things to be different, where, you know, there can be flavors of like poor me, or like I'm so annoyed, or the blame, or the whatever it is, and it's like when we can pan out and see the bigger picture at play, those pieces tend to shift, or we become more aware of them. So I'm naming this because for some people, you might not be able to do what Julie just did. You might be stuck in more of this layer of like, Yeah, I'm stuck. I see my my intergenerational need to, you know, stay small and stay quiet. But I'm frustrated at them. I can't believe they didn't fight. I'm annoyed at them, you know, like, How dare them do what they did because that had such an impact on me, like, there's so much, why didn't they stand up for me? You know, there's lots there that can be showing up, and that's more that inner layer of like, the frustration we can have towards our humanness and our ancestors, humanness, versus the Grace or The compassion we can have for our own humanness and our and our ancestors humanness, and it just becomes that much more easier when we find that space. And it's not always easy for people to land on. And both you and I have been doing this work for some time, you know,

Julie: 00:29:38

yeah, taking some time, yeah. What comes for me around that is, like, I guess I think of that as, like, as resistance, right? Sort of resisting what is, and I'm really familiar with that pattern, or like, that pattern of self deprecating or judgment, and again, all of that has enabled the stain small, right? It's all part of that same defense mechanism. 100% but it also like resistance, yeah, just reinforces it, whereas when you're talking about grace, yeah, I think of that as, I mean, you, you may have said this. I mean, I know originally it was Peter Levine, but it's like that reminder of what he talks about with the compassionate witness you know, of like shifting away from judgment towards self and other and like, yeah, like Yeah, viewing oneself through that lens with, like, the Compassionate witness. And then it just instantly, the not instantly and not always, but in this moment, it dissolved that tension, right, of like, wanting it to be different, yeah, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:30:41

and that made room for the other pieces to come in the information,

Julie: 00:30:45

yeah, I didn't have to do anything, yeah, right.

Nicole Lohse: 00:30:49

And I'm sure people listening are like, but how do you get to that spaciousness? I know you can download my experiential guide to find a step by step present.

Julie: 00:31:03

Yeah, there's no magical solution to it. But yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:31:06

yeah, to me, that is the ongoing practice. And what it is is acknowledging, acknowledging what is, like you said, right? Like, the more we can acknowledge what is, the more we can hold space for the many layers that are at play, and yeah, sometimes it happens with ease, and sometimes we're in conflict with ourselves, and it's frustrating and it's hard, and we feel like we're moving backwards and we're small again. And why can't we take up space? And here I am again, still. Yeah,

Julie: 00:31:40

I don't know if we can skip over that. I don't know, right? It feels like that's a necessary stage. I did, yeah, yeah.

Nicole Lohse: 00:31:47

I do too. And I think it's a stage that continue like, I feel like that's always going to be there for us, but the more we can feel the difference of like, oh, here I am in this dynamic. I'm in the dynamic where I'm in conflict with the part of me that wants to stay small that is, like, you know, if you don't stay small, we're all gonna die. Like, you know, like, not a chance we're doing this. It's like, well, if I'm constantly in conflict with that, of course it's I'm gonna be having a hard time. And of course, I also am in conflict with it, because it makes sense that I want things to be different, right? Yeah. So to be able to at least, that's what's been really beneficial to me, is to be able to see the layers at play, to be able to see the compassionate or the empathic witness, to be able to see how I feel towards my patterns, to see the patterns themselves and how entangled they can be in so many different dynamics, and then at the core of it, the trauma that we're stuck in that place in the threat response cycle, right? So just being able to map it out to me is like an ongoing practice, and then pausing and noticing like, Oh, there I am in conflict with myself, understandably, Oh, there I am not able to speak up. Well, my mom says something that isn't appropriate or isn't supportive for what I need right now. Oh, okay. I can either be annoyed at her because she's not reading me correctly. I can be annoyed at myself because I didn't speak up again, even though I've been doing all this work. Or I can be like, Oh, I see her in her history. I see me in my history, and do I have capacity to say something later? Yes or No, who knows, right?

Julie: 00:33:27

It sounds like to me, it's like acknowledging our humanness in this process, right? It's like, yeah, the end of the day, we're still human. At the end of the day, I'm still going to stay small in certain circumstances, and maybe later, you know, that'll change. But it's like, yeah, the grace of the humility, I guess, of just accepting those parts of us because they weren't. I guess it's that validation, and the part of me that needs to stay smaller, that's terrified of being big or being seen also probably didn't get validated very much, you know, like, and it's gonna scream at me until I validate it right. Like, I think that's that resistance for me too, is around like, yeah. Like, I just think of my my child having big feelings and a big moment of dysregulation, like he just needs somebody to see him right and be with him in that moment. And I think those parts of me in this in a similar vein, right? Like, even though they're frustrating and I wish they would grow up or be better or be different, it's like they actually just need somebody to sit sometimes, sit in the darkness with them too. You know what I mean? Exactly? Just Yeah, it's like CO regulation with the self, I guess when I think about it, with that, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicole Lohse: 00:34:44

Should we play with one more little edge? Yeah? Okay, so I want to invite one more exploration for people. So what we did to start is we kind of just acknowledge, like, where's the edge, where we kind of get uncomfortable, and where's this place, the smaller container where we feel safe? Safe and the contrast of in between those two. So we played in those rounds, and then we played more in the ancestral rounds of holding space for the bigger picture. And now I want to play a little more with a behavior, so from with a movement and and to me, there's so much that can show up again. I don't work too much with context. When the context comes, when the story and their meaning making comes, that's a huge piece to support the puzzle to come together. Like you said, you had all these pieces come forward, but we're not using a story to explore here. Not that there's anything wrong with this, but what I like about what we're going to do next is we get to just notice what is in the simplicity of the exploration. As soon as we add context, we get we can get caught up in the details. So that's I'm just want to name that so. So if I think about getting small, I have a response, so let's start with that. Okay, so when I think about getting small, I have a sigh of relief. A little bit it was like, Oh, I don't have to work so hard. It's kind of comfortable here. I um, yet there's an aloneness and a a grieving or maybe a longing for right? It's more a longing than a grieving, but I feel the comfort of it, yet still the aloneness and the longing for something else that's a really quick I could go into way more detail. But what do you what do you notice with this idea of getting smaller? It's

Julie: 00:36:47

interesting when you as soon as you said it, I was like, Oh no, I don't want to go back.

Unknown: 00:36:53

Understandable.

Julie: 00:36:55

I've been enjoying the like, spaciousness of actually, you know, taking up space and not playing small. It's almost a weird, like, a subtle aversion to it. Now I love it. That's great. Yeah, I want to go back there. I know that, like, it's so familiar, right? Yeah, but yeah, this moment, I'm like, No, not ready.

Nicole Lohse: 00:37:12

I love it. I love it. So I'll invite people listening to play with it and and to notice. I think that's a really awesome response to have, because it's your system being like, Wait, what was familiar isn't necessarily needed anymore. I'm actually okay in this other state too,

Julie: 00:37:30

right? Or just fun. Maybe fun is the right? Yeah, awesome.

Nicole Lohse: 00:37:34

I love it. So for people listening, you can play with this, like, notice what your response is to getting small, and then we're going to do the opposite. What shows up at the idea of taking up space, and because you're already taking up more space, Julie, there might be another edge where it gets uncomfortable, or there might not be, in this moment. We'll see. So we'll do the opposite now to just see, okay, what shows up at the idea of taking up space for me, I just took a breath. Wait, it is way nicer out here, even though this feels really comfortable.

Julie: 00:38:18

Yeah? Totally, yeah. Yeah, I think. Sorry, go ahead. You go for it.

Julie: 00:38:25

What's available to me now that I admittedly was not available to me at the start of our conversation is like a weird call, you know, like the edges of that and finding safety in it. But I know it like, it's also this, like, very present, very like, slow, like, low tone, I guess if I were to put a name to it, like, it's all good, okay, you know, like, you'll Yeah, no rush and yeah, the thought of it is not as triggering as it was just, you know, 40 minutes ago. Yeah, brilliant, yeah. So

Nicole Lohse: 00:39:10

to me, this is neuroplasticity. This is the brain rewiring itself. It went from being programmed in a way where it associated taking up space with scary potential consequences. Don't do it right. And having moved through the layers of it, there's more room to be in it. And the programming now is we can take up space, and that's actually okay. We feel good here. We feel expansive here. There's Yeah, and there's probably going to be more layers in some of the dynamics, right? The coupling dynamics might show up depending on what's involved in the environment, like, if we put you back on the stage, yeah, exactly. It probably won't be the exact same, yeah. You'll have more capacity to be there. But some other. Layers might show up, right? And this is what we're doing here, is we're playing with reprogramming in a way where it's like, hey, this new thing is now the familiar and the preferred, and it doesn't mean that there aren't edges to that, to the next layer, exposing itself to where the riskiness shows up, but the programming is now different, right? Yeah, you're gonna be walking through Vancouver just like, hey. Not a thought, not even someone can cat call you and you like, great.

Julie: 00:40:42

Nothing affects me. No, yeah. Well, it also it, you know what? That helps me, just in terms of the like, fear response, it helps. It's a good reminder for me that it's like, it's not permanent. It's like a moment in time. There is a story attached to it. There's a history, there's behavior, there's patterns, but it's like, in any given moment, like, I can be feeling, sensing, experiencing something completely different. And it actually doesn't take a lot, right? Like, exactly, exactly, yeah, and it makes the fear seem really kind of small. Now, right? In a way, it might get big again, like you said, but like, right now I'm like, like, Yeah, okay. It's like, not getting too attached either to the like, sensation, emotion, story, because it's just yeah. It's not a permanent thing,

Nicole Lohse: 00:41:35

right? It doesn't have to be Yeah, exactly yeah. There's a different relationship created. A reprogram has happened, and there's you're going to be in the world differently, and it doesn't mean that, and it might Yeah, exactly the same rules definitely don't apply. Yeah, yeah. And I want to name that for some people with the idea of getting big, something else might have happened. Because you've navigated some of the layers, there's more room to take up the space. And for others, it might be the idea of taking up space, boom income, the coupling dynamics. Income, exactly. It's like, there's the fear, there's the hesitation. And what I want to invite those people to recognize is like, when you imagine yourself taking up space. See if you can find that moment where, and if you can't find it by reflecting, this is where the behavior, the movement, can happen. Of like, broaden your shoulders. See what it's like to kind of feel yourself broader, and you'll notice that shift happen. Of like, oh, there's that heart rate increase, or there's those eyes darting around, or there's the fear, and I really quickly need to get small again. So it's it's about playing in those realms where you can notice the subtle flavors by playing with these movements to let your system discover something else is possible, just like Julie did, right where it's like, okay, play in these realms where there are these edges, where there's discomfort, just a little bit so that you can support the reprogramming to happen where your system is no longer coupled with like, this equals that. It's like, actually this taking up space equals I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm seen, I feel connection. I feel like I belong, instead of like, taking up space equals fear, consequences, I'm gonna die, or whatever is currently entangled in that. So the invitation for those of you who don't have that sense of space yet to see that as a great place to do some exploring, and

Julie: 00:43:37

it doesn't mean there's anything wrong. I guess that would be the only other thing I would say to that, right? Yeah, it's like not to just because I might not be feeling that, it doesn't mean I'm doing something the right way versus the wrong way, right? It's like I could very well be having that response too, and it would be about just validating that as well, if that's perfect, right? Which, if we

Nicole Lohse: 00:43:54

would have done this at the beginning, you probably would have had a response. Oh, absolutely. 100%

Julie: 00:43:58

had that response. Yeah, exactly. We

Nicole Lohse: 00:44:01

found it in a different way, not just this. Like, get small, get get pick up space, curl up, expand your shoulders, right? Yeah. It's like, this is the power of this work, and how quickly we can move through what we're caught in and change our experience entirely, bit by bit, usually, usually sometimes it's a big thing. So you'll see Julie on Joe Rogan's podcast next week. Imagine I'll be

Julie: 00:44:35

interrupting him and, yeah, taking up all kinds of space. I'll be like, totally slow down for it.

Unknown: 00:44:45

I like this. Like this,

Julie: 00:44:49

the challenge, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:44:52

totally, totally, anything else you want to add before we wrap up, I feel like there's some good nuggets for people to play. With and also to understand the experience, but more, I

Julie: 00:45:04

guess, maybe just to like name without, again, giving too much context. But when I think back to like who I was in my childhood and then my youth, and up until whenever, I don't know there's not like one moment, but I was like, I was incredibly shy, self conscious like, you know, I couldn't even read a book in in public, like in a classroom setting. Couldn't give oral presentations like I this. This type of fear and anxiety was crippling for me. And I thought, you know, I created a story around that, that that's just the way it's it is, that's my personality. I was told I was shy and quiet, and I sort of expected it as a fact. And I guess, if there's anything like that, I want people to know is that it's not a fact, right? And it's like, you know, not, not to sell yourself short. Think that you can't actually change or or take up more space from that. Like, that's not a given, right? Like, yeah, and that was pretty well, like, a given to me, until, you know, whatever, however, many years ago. So, yeah, yeah, that's so

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:09

cool to challenge

Julie: 00:46:10

the lead narrative, right? The belief system that we hold around it, or, or call it personality, right? Like, none of that's fixed, yeah, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:19

I love that. Yeah, thanks for naming that. That's huge. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much for, yeah, exploring and taking up more space. And if anyone wants some support taking up space, they can reach out to Julie. Might have a wait list, but you know, never know, yeah,

Julie: 00:46:41

yeah, yeah, yeah, happy to help. So Thanks, Nicole, this was fun. Thanks for the invitation and yeah, experiential conversation we just had. Yeah, left feeling very cold and warm and calm. So yeah, I

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:58

just keep getting images if you're walking downtown Vancouver, just like, without strutting, just, you know, yeah, because you know, the other end of the spectrum is the strutter that

Julie: 00:47:13

happens there too, right? The boomerang effect. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:47:15

exactly, exactly. So I like this image I have of you strutting, strutting confidently, not over confidently in that, right?

Julie: 00:47:29

That's a good word. Yeah? Awesome.

Unknown: 00:47:32

Thanks so much, Julie.

Unknown: 00:47:33

Oh yeah, that's.