Bridging The Practical & The Spiritual with Jessie Phoenix | 031

Nicole Lohse: 00:00:00

Compassion isn't something we can just have. It's something that we experience once we create space around what is in this episode, I'm joined with Jessie Phoenix, and she is one incredible human being who does a beautiful job bridging the practical with the spiritual. And in this episode, we speak a lot around that bridging of implementing the practical step by step process without being so caught up in the step by step process. So if you are looking to have more compassion for yourselves and for others on this planet, if you're looking to be more in connection with yourself and with this planet, and if you're interested in just the journey towards compassion, I encourage you to have a listen. I'm so grateful for Jessie and her offerings. I have had the opportunity to join her on a number of ceremonies, and have learned so much from the space she holds, the rituals she invites us into, and the power of connecting into community in a ceremonial perspective. So I hope this conversation sparks curiosity around your own relationship with rituals, with ceremony and with compassion, and that her practical steps towards compassion guide you towards recognizing your journey and your own relationship with what's possible when it comes to having compassion for being human. Enjoy so I'm going to start by acknowledging my experience, because I find that's way easier than dropping into actual words. I'm noticing even when we did a run through of what I want to talk about in this episode, I felt this interconnectedness with you, and this is something that I'm really appreciative with the work I have done with you. Is it's really easy for me to drop in and feel you in other realms, or, I don't know, sometimes the words aren't quite the words aren't quite there for me to articulate this. But I noticed that, and I'm feeling that right now. So that's easier for me to tap into this more expansive space that you hold, that I can easily meet you in. And, yeah, that's something I really appreciate about you, is how I can tap in and meet you there, and the space you hold from that place, it feels playful and it feels like there's an ease to it. Even when things aren't easy or aren't at all playful, you somehow just hold this coherent field that I I really enjoy meeting you in. So that's what I'm noticing, and it's letting me land a little bit more. It's like, start the podcast. Yeah, Nicole that. So

Jessie Phoenix: 00:03:01

that's a beautiful intro. This is what I'm noticing, right? Yeah. So can you imagine if we met each other more often that way?

Nicole Lohse: 00:03:11

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's what you're supporting more and more people into doing, right is, is finding that within themselves, so that we can hold that for each other and meet in in that space. The word expansiveness keeps coming for me in that more expansive place, because I know you speak to compassion a lot, and that is where I experience compassion is in that space. So I'm grateful for the work that you do that is inviting more and more people into that space. Yeah, that

Jessie Phoenix: 00:03:45

reminds me of a word that I made up recently that is insan that meeting expansion, or true expansion must be, must emerge from in Spanish, that we must go and that it's actually a wave that's continual, is that as we are expansive, we actually have to be expansive too. Oh,

Nicole Lohse: 00:04:13

I love that. Which Have you ever read the Cabal Young? No, it speaks to the principles of life, really, but one of them being rhythm, being that rhythm and that contraction and expansion, and I'm very novice to it, so I can't speak to all the principles that well, but that's what you're I feel, and what you're describing is that contraction and expansion, but it's both the external and the internal in expansion, in expansion. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:04:44

I love it. I

Nicole Lohse: 00:04:45

love it. So this dives me right into my first inquiry that I want to make with you, which is this bridging of the practical with the spiritual, which is something we're already speaking. To and I feel like that's such a valuable inquiry to be making. Is like, Okay, what is practicality? What is practical and what is spiritual, and how they blend, and how, to me, this is the journey we're on. Is the blending of those two. Is the the living from both places. And I know for me, sometimes it's a lot easier to be in the spiritual than it is to be in the practical. And the practical can feel overwhelming to me, or the practical can feel like, yeah, sense of responsibility too much. The pace feels fast, whereas the spiritual feels spacious. And you know, yes, there's qualities of bypassing in there, and, you know, like, it's like, it's way nicer to be over there. So this the bridging and living in both. And I say both loosely because it's, to me, it's more than both. Is something where I want to start is, yeah, what's your journey with that? Or your Yeah, anything you want to speak to around the bridging of those two worlds.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:06:06

Yeah, it's a great invitation question. I think for me, what it really came to was that those were the things that I needed, so those were the things that I investigated, and I I need spiritual practice in my life. I need to touch into something that feels greater than myself, that feels greater than what we can touch and feel in a material way, not that spiritual isn't also infused in that. And I also need really practical ways to practice that and get there. And, you know, we'll talk about this in a bit. But the, you know, self compassion, piece and compassion, and I had, there was a lot of times where I was like, yeah, that's such a nice idea that people just say, and throw around, like, Oh, I just have self compassion. And I was like, Yeah, but how exactly sure if I knew how to do that? And be like, Oh, yes, yes, yes, right. Okay, yes, okay, oh, you know, totally, but we're all good, but I'm like, so how, how do I get there on a day when I feel really frustrated and heavy and, you know, like it, I need some steps here. And I'm not a fan of like, Oh, we've got nine steps to, you know, such and such success or whatever. And at the same time those things work, our brains need steps. So, yeah, those were the things that I needed. So those were the things that I investigated, researched, educated myself, practiced, and that's the soup that I'm swimming in, you know. And I think it's the suit that so many of us are swimming in. Just like, some days feel like you said, really expansive and that we can touch into that place that feels connected to all things, and some days just feel really on the ground and mundane and lists and getting stuff done. So, yeah, I love it.

Nicole Lohse: 00:08:11

Do you feel like having done your registered counseling, RCT, registered counseling, therapy training, like getting your degree in that allowed more of that practicality to support what you already had in your spiritual practices.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:08:28

Yeah, absolutely. I think it gave me the understanding. So I took the opening to Grace training with Mariah Moser, and it's a very nervous system based training, trauma resolution, and it really opened up for me this understanding of the part that the nervous system has to play. Because if we, if we just could think our way into something, then, you know, we would all be, you know, absolutely regulated. I'm geniuses, performing amazing things constantly, but there's just so many more elements at play than that. And so that training helped me really understand on that practical level, what was actually going on, like when we feel this, why do we feel that? And, you know, and not that understanding is the whole picture. In fact, with somatic therapy, so much of what we're doing is coming into the body and being present with what's there, as you know. And but yeah, I just really made it really, I don't know, tangible and understandable through my own life, you know. And then as I looked at it through, as I started seeing clients, you know, having that those pieces to just put together into that puzzle, yeah, with the nervous system, just made so much sense for that piece of it and just really put it on the ground. Into the context of, like, what it means to live a human life, and how, how the things, how things around us, are affecting us, and what we do with those things, the meaning we make of those things, and then how that affects our body, and then how that body responds to what's around us. So yeah, got a little off track there. But no, it's good.

Nicole Lohse: 00:10:18

I think that you know, something I speak to is like, let's look at the whole human experience and in cinematic experiencing. And I think Mariah teaches this as well. It's like, how do we look at sai bam, which is sensation, imagery, behavior, affect and meaning making. You know, I have my own version of that, but it's like, how do we look at the whole human being here? And we need meaning. We need to be able to make meaning and have these practical steps to support the integration of the other pieces. And where we can get stuck is we're so focused on the meaning and the practical and the step by step process, we have lost the ability to listen, or we forgot how to listen to the other layers that are at play. So it's like, have the practicality, have an understanding of what's at play, because it's important to support the deeper inquiries into the bigger picture that's there. There's, yeah, so much richness in that,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:11:17

absolutely and the and the body is part of that bridge. It's like the body brings the presence, right? Well, we need the mind to come into the body with the presence. But if it's all just thinking and cognitive understanding, and there's no like, Hi, here I am, here you are, then it just gets missed, right? And then it doesn't actually land and start to integrate between people or between ourselves and and through that, I think there's moments in that, really, when we consider those practical pieces, there's moments that do open us up To spaces that may to some people feel spiritual, and I know for myself that's true. And also I've been in a lot of spaces that are, you know, healing, facilitating spaces without that practical piece of understanding trauma, understanding the body, understanding the nervous system, where, you know, harm is done, where people aren't actually, you know, being held in a safe way, or offered the space they need to, you know, regulate, or be offered co regulation, or anything like that. And when there's just when it's too heavily weighted on the spiritual side. Without that piece, things can get pretty messy, really, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:12:47

yeah, yeah. It's makes me think of what I spoke to at the beginning, where it's like, you can meet me somewhere other than I'll say in the third dimension. It's like, if we open up into that, and we get lost in that. It's like, well, how do I integrate it into being human? Like, I need the support to, yeah, integrate what I might be opening up in these spiritual inquiries, and on the other end of the spectrum. Now, when I'm so practical, I need the support to open up to what the hell my body's saying or why I'm so disconnected from it, right? So it's, yeah, having that whole spectrum of being human woven into the support that we're receiving is so key. Yeah. So I want to ask, there's so many questions I have just even around what you said, like your own experience, if you're open to it, and it's this is the experiential podcast, and sometimes I forget to pause and also invite other people to notice what you're experiencing while you're listening. But I'm willing, wondering if you're willing to share a little of with an example of like the practical bridging with the spiritual just to support people in understanding more from a practical perspective with an example, and I'm happy to give an example too, putting you on the spot. Well,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:14:16

I think what comes to mind is actually it's a lead into talking about self compassion, so we can, you know, circle back around and around here, but when I really wanted to understand what it would be like to meet myself in a loving way, when I was struggling, not just on the good days, but when I was struggling To be able to turn towards myself with tenderness. And you know, actually know what it's like. What does self love mean? So I started really inquiring about that in my day to day experiences, and when I would be in certain relationships with myself responding to myself in certain ways. What would happen? What would happen if I responded in different ways? And at some point, I realized that I was integrating a bunch of practical threads from, you know, from somatic therapy, from internal family systems therapy, from also years of spiritual practice. And what I noticed that I was doing was these very practical steps there. There's like, you know, these steps I'll share with you. The first step is, actually, admit, is, like, what's actually going on here? Because so often we'll go through our day and be struggling and struggling, or, like, feeling crappy and like, I don't know what's going on, but we don't actually stop, yeah, like, Hey, hi, hey, what's going on here? What's really going on? And, like, fair that we don't do that, because often what we find is sometimes it's painful, right? And then, and then I figured out this sort of pattern of these steps that I would take admit being the first one, and I would go through these steps and through that very practical, very step by step process of using these words that would get me from one step to the other. Where I landed I found opened me to a space where compassion entered beautiful. And I was like, Oh, this isn't something I'm doing. I mean, yes, it is. It's paradoxical, right? It was like I was doing these steps, and then I it's like I softened enough, yeah, that. And in, you know, in the bigger picture, this is how I see this, that what would happen is that I opened a way for what I see in a spiritual way, is that compassion is actually part of the essence of life that is around us all the time. Yes, and that through those steps, I just managed to soften myself enough that I could open to it, and I could feel some of it, and I could be in relationship with it, and I could let it meet me, and I could let it soften me even deeper, and I could stay there. And that feel felt spiritual to me. That feel spiritual just like getting to a state where I could be like, Oh my god, this is here. I Jesse. Am not creating this compassion. I just got myself to a place where I could be open to it. I got enough of my shit out of the way. I don't know that it's there was enough space and compassion just would enter into that space. I was like, wow, that that this is beyond me, yeah, and yet, it required me to be very intentional and practical to get here so that I could open to what was beyond.

Nicole Lohse: 00:17:53

Yeah, beautiful. Oh, I love it. Yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:17:57

specific example. But it's no, it's great practiced again and again. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:18:01

no, it's great, because what you're speaking to is the difference in between, consciously trying to make something happen versus creating the space for something to be happening. Right? The difference in between, I'm going to try my best to have compassion for myself and all the different ways I show up in the world or have gratitude, and we could put lots of different words in there that are practices that people implement right where it's more top down. I'm gonna do my best to be compassionate or be grateful, and that has its benefits as well. But what you're describing isn't about the top down approach. It's about taking some steps that might be more top down, but that lead you to more of this bottom up, embodied knowing experience of the compassion and probably Same goes for gratitude and lots of other experiences. So I think that's really important for us to recognize that difference between trying to make something happen versus playing in the realms with what is through some practical steps to land in in the actual experience of it.

Unknown: 00:19:10

Yeah,

Unknown: 00:19:12

yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:19:13

yeah, what? Oh yeah, please

Nicole Lohse: 00:19:16

you go,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:19:19

you know what? It's interesting that, like, mind down, sort of like trying to make something happen. I find that something that we can get tripped up into, and not always like, like you said, that practice often has benefits, but the trying to be something other than what we are in the moment can often just like, we can so badly want to be on a different trail, but when we're like, just trying to be like, I don't want to be here, we just keep tripping over it and end up on the same trail right. Just like, but ironic, or, I don't know if it's ironic or if it's paradoxical, but just that. So off. And when we just sit with what is, what is changes, yeah, for something to shift, and that's the Get out of our own way. Yeah, exactly somatic therapy and like, you know, the things that, all the things that you and I practice, and it just astounds me that we how easily we forget that all the time, yeah, myself

Nicole Lohse: 00:20:22

included, all the time, all the

Jessie Phoenix: 00:20:24

time, right? Yeah. And there are, you know, a lot of old, old teachings that, again, to circle back to that bridge of the practical and the spiritual of you know, be with what is and what emerges from that is some it's changed something different.

Nicole Lohse: 00:20:45

Yeah, and I have to laugh, because it's it's so much easier to do it that way, too, because, yeah, we're not in conflict with ourselves or trying so hard to do something other than what the patterns that we find ourselves in are like determined to do, and the ease when we learn to be with what is. And I'm not saying easy, ease, more spaciousness, definitely not always easy. But yeah, that I laugh because I'm like, there I am getting in my own way again. And yeah, I I'm sure listeners can relate to that experience of, like, trying to make something be different, and the invitation of, how do we for me, it's my my first piece is pause and notice. And similar to your practical step of, I know, admit, yeah, right, it's like, admit, pause and notice what is just That step alone is an ongoing practice.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:21:45

Totally, yeah, and it can be the hardest one. It's like stopping and moving train, just, yeah, like, oh, I need to pause and notice here, not just barreling into this same

Nicole Lohse: 00:21:58

thing. Yeah, exactly.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:22:00

So what was your example? I'm curious to hear. Still want to share that

Nicole Lohse: 00:22:04

I didn't have one right right away. So let's see if I, I think it's similar for me. I'll just share what's going on for me right now, even it's so easy for me to be in, you know, the realm of spirituality. Like I said, like I love living in that space. I feel most like myself there, and I have some background noise happening that feels really restless, feels really old, feels really intergenerational, but I feel like I've spent a lot of time ignoring it, or kind of keeping the door closed to it, or not saying I haven't done many layers of work. But there's something that feels really loud that's there that I am just starting to look at, that is like bringing on a little bit of terror and a little bit of panic and just the pausing and noticing and remembering like, Okay, wait, I am many realities all at one time again, the practical remembering of that allows me to not get consumed by or caught in what feels like a vortex that will like, take me down. It allows me to instead hold both experiences and acknowledge, like, Oh, hey, I want to look away from this still. And how can I notice how I'm looking away from it, and find the edge where I can look away but, but acknowledge this other thing exists. And again, it's just the holding. What is that is such a ongoing thing for me, while noticing things are uncomfortable and things feel scary and it feels like unknown and shift in identity, even though I don't even know what it I mean, I have some ideas of what it is, but so it's, it's, again, just the ongoing, pausing and noticing similar like reflect with what is and how do I hold coherence while I hold chaos as well, in whatever capacity I have to do that. So the practicality of having all the time, I need to navigate these layers and remind myself I'm already whole and I'm here, and nothing's urgent. I can keep distracting myself all I want, if I choose. Yeah, that feels really a love for me right now in the dance in between, because I could very easily just stay in the distraction, or the spiritual, which is a form of distraction in some form, and just like, float over there for a while and like, no, no, I'm just gonna enjoy nature a bit longer. This is great. Oh, Netflix, ooh. Bridgerton, I haven't finished that yet, which I'm also doing. Just

Unknown: 00:24:55

don't get me wrong, but

Nicole Lohse: 00:24:59

the conscious choice. Of where we're putting our energy, where I'm putting my energy and my attention.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:25:05

Yeah, yeah. Ongoing, right? It

Nicole Lohse: 00:25:09

sure is. It sure is. So I am drawn to speaking some more on this journey to compassion. Before we do that, I want to speak a little to something you're trained in that I know very little about. And the reason why I want to move to this for a sec before we move to the next few stages of, or steps of, or the practical steps of moving towards compassion, is because I want to invite people to have another language or another understanding of animism and more of the spiritual side of things, because something that I'm constantly working with is, how do I articulate my experiences? And I don't know much about animism, but I'd love to hear you know how animism has supported you in your journey. Has supported you with this journey towards compassion, and I want to do so just in case some of those words spark some curiosity for people and also support more articulation to some of the experiences they may have while listening or well may maybe having all the time.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:26:21

Yeah, animism. So I started using the word animism as was like a transition with my teacher, Angela little bird, out of using the word shamanism, which is a word that a lot of people might be more familiar with, just to use a word that is more universal and doesn't come from specific people that may or may not be giving us their blessing to use that word. So animism, I mean, it can. It means many things to many, many different people. I think that generally, what the word means is that it's a it's a way of seeing the world, that all things are alive. All things are animate. Have soul, anima, soul. And so the study or practice of animism is really about it's about relationship. About this tree over here is having a life. It's having it's having an experience. And I'm having an experience. Maybe we can share some of that experience. In fact, we are sharing some of that experience. I'm breathing the air that is, you know, like trees and humans are living this incredible relationship where, you know, we're breathing each other's air, right? Without without each other, other wouldn't exist. And so animism, to me, is really about the acknowledgement of that and then the deepening into practices that allow us to be in communication with those beings that are around us, it recognizes that things aren't all as they seem or appear to Be, which, of course, is also recognized in, you know, physics, right? This cup is actually more space than solid, you know. So just that there are layers to this experience that we may not see with our physical eyes. I like the I like to use the saying of like, see with your heart's eyes, and things feel different when we see with our hearts eyes. And I think that we see if we more easily see other things, quote, unquote, as alive and having their own beingness and having their own place and wisdom in this world that we can learn from. So really, it's also about being a student of this world of nature, of like sitting and listening, sitting and listening, sitting and listening. And people have been doing this for 1000s and 1000s of years. Many indigenous people are still connected to practices where they've been. They have continually been doing this for 1000s of years. Those of like myself with European ancestry are, you know, practicing to remember the lineages of my ancestors that really knew how to sit and listen to the land and remember that we're a part of it. We are nature. We are animals. We're nature, and we are part of this incredible I say it all the time, like we're. Part of a miracle? Yeah, we are a part of this incredible miracle, but we've forgotten, we've forgotten our place in it. We've, you know, the over culture has decided that dominance is the way to go, which is clearly not doing us a whole lot of good. So, yeah, I think that part of the reason why animism is really important to me is because it also rearranges the the place that I put myself in the world. It's like that i i am not dominant over the the environment that I live in, and I'm relearning how to be in good relationship with with this land. And that gives me so much that actually gives me so so much so, yeah, yeah. Explanation of animism.

Nicole Lohse: 00:30:57

I like it. What I feel in what you're sharing is the exchange of any energy, or the exchange in the appreciation of the energy of which we're all a part of, there's this collaboration that gets to happen. And yeah, we live in such a I experience us as you know, so individual, individualized, I guess, is the word I want to use, where the focus is like, how how do I get better? How do I change? How to but it's like, Wait, how can we attune more to what we're part of? To support the evolution, to support the growth, to support the healing, to really be in collaboration here, instead of just having to carry it alone. And that's something I've really learned from you and witnessed with you, in the space you hold and the rituals you weave in, and the ceremony ceremonies you hold. And I want to invite people into playing with those realms of ritual and ceremony. And I feel like there's lots that can get entangled in rituals and ceremonies. So I'd love to hear how rituals and ceremonies have taken shape in your life. And yeah, I want to invite those listening to really reflect on any rituals they might have or ceremonies that they're drawn to, either doing themselves or being part of in the community, like what how they can be so supportive in this, in this journey towards compassion and journey of working in collaboration with the energies of the world, really, yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:32:45

yeah, totally, yeah. There's, there's a lot of different ways that I participate in ritual, and some of them I'll share, and some of them feel more private and and I recently facilitated a gathering that I call seasonal ceremony. And it's really an idea once a quarter, and it's really about that stopping a pause. And so what is your notice? Pause and notice? Yeah, so it's like there's pause and notice with ourselves, like, what's happening here. And it's like a positive notice of what, what's happening here. You know? You know? Okay, we just went from the season of in the northern hemisphere, of of all this activity and warmth and harvest and bounty and and now, now that's like nature is starting to fall down and in and dark and quieter in modern life. We don't really get to do that so much, but I think our bodies really want to. I think that we want that rest. We want that seasonal rhythm. So as much as you know, a gathering on a Sunday afternoon with a small group of people. Can I think it's really important that we start doing that, maybe again, or continue to do that in ways that I just like that. Pause and notice I'm here. I'm changing. This is here. This is changing and and I'm part of that. It's connected. And so what part of me in the last one, we did this long sound bath and guided meditation, it was really about like standing in this gate right between on one hand, there's this bounty and there's this harvest. What's the bounty of my life from this beautiful summer season of harvest. And then, on the other hand, it's like the leaves are starting to dry and fall, like what actually is ready to be released and let go, what is what wants to be in the compost heap, because we're going to go down and in and, you know, really, it's hard. To ignore those things when it's dark outside, like the shadowy parts of ourself become more known, right? Whether we like it or not, we're gonna just face more of our interiority when in the darker season so and and I think that doing it together is so important, because one of the things that I love is, and we don't talk a ton in in the way that I'm facilitating that specific ceremony, but people will share, like, three weird words each in a in a greeting, like, my name is pronouns, and this is what I'm showing up with, three words. And it's often like, you know, joy, gratitude and grief, you know, can be a really like, there can be a wide span of what we're carrying all at once. And I think that, you know, we go through the checkout line the grocery store, how are you? I'm fine. How are you, I'm fine. How are you, I'm fine, you know? And we're not actually being like, Yeah, I'm I'm with grief, right? So, and in those moments when we gather together and we're like, all of you is welcome here. That's one very important part of ritual and ceremony, all of you is welcome here. That doesn't mean that we like take over the show or anything you know, with reverence and respect, all of you is welcome here, and what is here, right? And then let let that be noticed by the others. And then the others, they're like, oh my god, I'm holding that too, and I'm not alone, because I see that in you. And maybe we live in a small town, and maybe I see you walking around, and I'm like, Damn, she's so cool, like she's got no problems, like she just must be like, you know, all good, right? And then we show up with what's really here, and sometimes there's those harder pieces and there's tears, and then we see each other being like, Oh yeah, I have that joy and that gratitude, and I also have that grief, or I have my own different grief. And so yours is allowed to be here, mine's allowed to be here. I'm allowed to be here as I am. And that, even though it sounds simple, is radical. That is radical. Radical work in this time to show up as you are,

Nicole Lohse: 00:37:23

fully Yeah, and to let yourself be seen in it like one of my favorite definitions of trauma is the lack of the empathic witness, and how being in that kind of setting where there's not just the relatability, but the ability to be seen by someone who's holding empathy, by a group of people that are holding that empathy and that compassion, like that, to me, is what will heal the world. I believe, right, the more we come together and are able to hold that space for each other like that's what allows us to move through all these things we seem to be hiding from or hiding from others. So, yeah, there's such, such importance in that. I I'm grateful for the work you're doing in that. And, yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:38:14

yeah. And then just to add a little something, you know, something of something else is just, it can be so simple too. You know, sometimes I live near a river, and I go down to the river and I will collect like, little leaves and little sticks or little berries or whatever on my way, and I'll just go down to the river. And maybe I have a couple friends that are going through a hard time or, you know, just, you know, whenever, whenever anyone is listening to this, in the in the time of the world, there will be some tragedy happening that we know about that will be affecting our hearts to varying degrees and and I'll just go and, like, take a moment by the river, and I'll arrange those little pieces in a way that reflects the you know, what's on my heart for that? And just say, like, May, May, you know, might take a red berry for the heart and I will blow my intention. Like, may love be at the center. I'll put that in the middle, and then I'll like, oh, okay, there's some honeysuckle for sweetness. May, May the center be surrounded in sweetness, even though there may be pain, you know, just like, really, to acknowledge what's here and and then I'll just, like, take that leaf and like, thank the river for that, that prayer for me. And that can happen in 15 minutes. Totally, I think that these words like prayer and ritual and ceremony, they can feel really big. And of course, they can be very big, and they can also just be sweet and small and simple and touching, and that can change our whole day and and more.

Nicole Lohse: 00:39:59

Yeah. Yeah, there's something in what you're sharing that makes me think again, in the pausing and noticing. It's like, How can I pause to actually then notice and acknowledge not just what I'm experiencing but what's happening collectively? And coming back to everything, is energy by pausing and acknowledging that I'm attuning to that more coherent energy, to hold the things that are in chaos, and just to remind myself how to be in that, and to remind also collectively, how we are that even though we are also chaos. So whatever a ritual looks like or a ceremony looks like, it's the invitation to hold the chaos in coherence and to do it in together. Whether, you know, a ritual doesn't necessarily need to happen together, but that we're still together in the ritual, the intention is often doesn't always have to be bigger than ourselves.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:40:59

Yeah, totally. I feel like that's often what people remember in ritual and ceremony, is it's like a leaning into, oh, yeah, I'm not. It's not all up to me. Yeah, there's something else moving here, and I don't know what it is, necessarily and but there's something here that I can maybe just lean into a little little bit, even just that there are seasons moving right, that you know that we are being called more indoors and more quiet. This we can lean into that. I have to have to remind myself that as I leave my most favorite season of summer, our gifts here, yeah, that there's, as we keep circling back to there's just something that reminds us that we're not alone in it,

Nicole Lohse: 00:41:54

yeah, yeah, yeah. So beautiful. That makes me I don't know what the rest of your steps or your practical pieces to compassion are, or the journey towards and into compassion, but what we're speaking to here really feels like one of those pieces that allows us to open up into experiencing that embodied sense of compassion, because there's more trust in the collective holding, where we don't have to do it all ourselves, we don't have to do it all alone. And there's something I'm noticing, at least in myself, as we're talking, how that really softens me back into even receiving compassion from others, which is something that's challenging for me. Still, there's like a trust in being caught, a trust in being held, and a trust in receiving the care from, yeah, a bigger community, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:42:56

I think I don't know that. I think it'd be very rare to find people in in this over culture, here in North America that actually really know how to be supported, because it's not in our it's not in our community. It's not in our cultural way. And so, of course, it's not, it's not blueprint that's in our nervous system, and maybe, and some people would have received more or less of that in their in the parenting they received, or their families. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to know it. It's hard to know it and practice it and and we have to do that in little steps that

Nicole Lohse: 00:43:38

embody, yeah, exactly. It's a journey. I often speak to it as layers. It's like, oh, I'm peeling back the layers to soften into that in this example, like that experience of being supported and trusting and experiencing compassion from others like that's an ongoing peeling back into the possibility of what that might be like in its fullest expression. And it's been years and years of me peeling back layers, and I feel like I'm just getting stuck. And it's exciting to me. I mean, part of me is like, okay, they come on, Nicole, receive already, but also, yeah, it's so exciting. The richer it becomes, the more exciting it becomes, and the less I'm I am in challenge with myself for not allowing compassion and support in

Jessie Phoenix: 00:44:41

Yeah, yeah, I really am not, or I would say I don't personally subscribe to the belief that, no, you have to fully be able to love yourself before you can love someone else or be loved by someone else. And I think that's actually. Quite harmful for a lot of people. And because there are all kinds of people being loved who struggle with loving themselves, you know, and and yet, I think that there's like the word tributaries comes to mind. It's like these little rivers that feed all the different places that can compassion can happen in our life. Like the more we practice self compassion and being that loving one towards ourselves, the more it's like a muscle that we actually that compassion. It's like the entryway is like more cleared out and can come in for for another person, for someone else in our life, and maybe also to receive it from someone else. So I think that all of that work contributes to the other work, like all these little tribute contributing tributaries. I like that. I like that. But you know that weave that, like the receiving part of compassion, the giving part of compassion, and the meeting oneself with it, I think it all feeds into each other. Yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:12

I love that. I love that image too, of like the the image that's there for me is like how each might be flowing at a different rate, but then how they're coming together and eventually flowing together at the same rate, eventually, you know, and as they're all kind of feeding into each other, yeah, do you want to explore this journey towards compassion a bit more?

Unknown: 00:46:35

Sure? Yeah. I

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:36

don't know if you want to give away all your practical steps, but

Jessie Phoenix: 00:46:40

I probably won't, actually, because I'm thinking programming,

Nicole Lohse: 00:46:44

right? Yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:46:48

it's partly because, and it's interesting. When I when I taught the course, I had done it with myself for quite a while, and I was like, Okay, this is really changing something going through the these steps. And at first I didn't even know what I was doing. I was just doing a thing. And then I was like, hold on, what am I actually doing here? So I started really breaking it down. I was like, Okay, I'm doing that, and I'm doing that, and then do that. And then I started bringing it into my sessions with my clients, and just like, one little step, or just the first step, or, you know, and exploring it, you know, what? What changes does this make in their process and their in their, you know, experience of perceiving therapy like being in therapy and and I noticed that the same thing that it was giving to me was happening for them, was just that, like all the other things that we can tend to in therapy became easier when that piece of being able to meet oneself with real loving care was there, all the Other pieces could move so much easier. So when memories came up, or when, you know, when we're doing, you know, somatic work and things are moving in the body, that things would resolve much more easily. And I started calling, I was like, self compassion is like rocket fuel for other therapy, which is, like, a weird way to put it, but it felt like that for me, for myself. And I would have a therapy session, and I would be like, pausing the therapist, because I'd be like, Hold on, I got I gotta just, yeah, process. And then I would just move through the whole thing, and then they're like, and then I'd be like, Okay, wow, yeah, I'm good. Like, yeah, okay, yeah, amazing. And it was like, the thing that I was trying to figure out didn't need to be figured out anymore, or the clarity would come just because that piece just gave me so much. And and I also think in my I mean that I learned so much in all the trainings that I've taken, but it does seem to be missing in the general culture of therapy, yeah, and that that it can and, and much to Mariah moser's credit, in the in the somatic psychotherapy work, there isn't that such an emphasis on fixing right there. There is more of an emphasis on being and even then I found I was like, oh, but this piece, this piece, really like, I needed that piece. Yeah? So, yeah, I started practicing with clients, and they started really noticing, you know, it was like, I was like, wow, this is really helping people. This is working. And then then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna really break this down, because I want to bring it to more people. I don't want it to just be for people that are, you know, seeing me in therapy and and taught it as a core. And part of the reason why to circle back, like, I'm not going to give away all the steps, is because I actually found it really important to learn a step and then practice it, which may change because I may actually turn it into a book, in which case I'll be like, Don't get ahead first. Take your time is just that, like the mind wants to get to the finish line

Nicole Lohse: 00:50:29

100% totally. And then there we are getting in our own way again, exactly,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:50:33

exactly. So even if the first step is admit, and even if admit is like, well, I'm feeling, I'm feeling really grumpy today. Okay, this was me yesterday. I'm feeling grumpy. I'm feeling sad. I'm feeling like, Okay, I'm feeling, actually, there's disappointment here. Okay, there's some disappointment and there's some frustration. Just really recognizing what was here is that you actually have to just be there for a while. Yeah, just take the time that it takes to recognize what's actually going on, and then to just be with it, to allow it to be there. And that sort of mixed into some of the next steps. It's like, can I actually allow this to be here? Can I stop pushing away what's actually here. This is what's here. No matter how much I don't want to be sad and grumpy, this is what's happening. And it is amazing how much energy we spend with one part of us feeling something and another part being like, I don't want it. I'm going to push it away. So much energy, right? So much conflict, so much conflict, so much conflict. So I was like, I like this expression of like this work is about getting off the battlefield, your internal battlefield. It's like, let's just stop the battle and just be like, what's here? What is here? Can it be allowed to be here? And thus moves the steps. And really, it's just a deepening of that, you know, the steps and like, really, are all these necessary, these different words, but because there's these different words that actually forced me to take different steps and pause with each one, be like, Okay, here I am. I'm going to spend some time now with this step, yeah, and I'm gonna use this language here, and that helps me keep in the pausing and the noticing, yeah,

Nicole Lohse: 00:52:30

yeah. Stay,

Jessie Phoenix: 00:52:31

stay right.

Nicole Lohse: 00:52:32

Take time, be clear, yeah. And sometimes

Jessie Phoenix: 00:52:37

I get to step two, and I'm like, You know what? That's That's what I can do right now. And already I feel softening, already it feels different. So, yeah, it just and it's been really cool to see what's happened for other people, you know, like clients telling me how, wow, I really noticed when I'm doing this work, how much compassion I have for other people, like I was so struggling with this relationship, and because, really, I call it radical, self responsibility is part of this self compassion work, because as long as it's out there, the mind is just gonna latch on to it being fixed out there, fixing that other person, changing that other person, but we can't

Nicole Lohse: 00:53:29

as much as it's so much easier to blame it and put it out there, because that means we don't have to leave our own staff. It's so much easier. But yeah, can't do anything with that. Yeah, radical self responsibility, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, beautiful, yeah.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:53:46

But interestingly enough, the result seems to be that when people are practicing it, then where they're pointing that blame, often, there's a softening there too,

Nicole Lohse: 00:53:56

yes, yeah, because we're just admitting what is Yep, and allowing it to be there, giving it the space to be there. Yeah. So I want to invite listeners, even right now, to pause and admit like what is alive right in this moment, and something I speak to with pausing. My principles are pause and notice, have awareness and curiosity, recognize there's nothing to fix and you're already whole. So for me, that experience with wholeness is what encompasses the compassion, or what is you know, compassion is definitely part of that, but in the pausing and noticing and admitting it's like see all the layers that are at play. Like you said, the thing that is, you know, feeling grumpy, and the other part that is, like frustrated, that I'm feeling grumpy. Okay, there's two, two experiences here of many, and there's the conflict so to notice I'm trying to fix. Well. My grumpiness, with my frustration to see the layers at play there is so beneficial, because it like to me, at least it's like teasing it all apart to see a map of my experience, and then, yeah, it makes sense that I feel this way, right? And to allow those to all be there is so juicy and hard and very hard, yeah, I'm so curious what your other steps are all for your program.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:55:32

I mean, it's all, you know, I love how I love hearing your principles, right? Because it's all kind of the same, you know, when it's truthy, when you're, like, hitting on something, that's like, yeah, this feels really real. I feel like that. There's, there's 1000 ways to get there exactly, you know, I used to be like, oh, like, who needs another freaking program on this? There's already books out there. There's, you know, Kristin neffs work, and there's so many people doing this work, but there's also a lot of people on this earth that all can access practices with different language and different resonance. And so if my way works for some people great, and your way works for some people great, like we just need to be doing this exactly. I love how it all, you know, it's, it's all same, same, different, as they say, 100%

Nicole Lohse: 00:56:31

100% and that's something that I always say is, like, what I speak to might, might be what resonates with you, what Jesse's saying might resonate with you as someone else, right? Like, it's, it really is like, find what feels aligned and speaks to us, listening to our own experiences relative to what other people are offering us to inquire into, instead of seeking for the answer and trying to find the thing. And that's gonna fix me, right? It's like, oh, this is sparking some ahas. This is drawing me in. I want to learn more. I really resonate with this person. Like, how do we how do we let that be our guide and trust that there's something to learn in every dynamic, if we choose. Makes me think, when I first started teaching yoga, I shortly after I got into Feldenkrais, which is all about exploring what your patterns and your habits are, and learning how to move with more ease. And that really changed how I taught yoga, because I was looking at things from more of the perspective of curiosity, instead of like, follow the these steps really, which for some yoga practitioners, that's a big part of the practice. So I went to a yoga class, and I was so angry because I had heard these incredible things about this practitioner or this teacher. I was so excited to go, and then there was a sub, and it was in Ashtanga class, and it was so structured. And the whole time I was just furious and angry because it wasn't what I expected or what I wanted. And yet, I got to learn something in that, because I was in my anger in response to this person's simplicity of how they were teaching. And that's where it's like, yeah, follow where you're drawn, and there's always something to learn, and then what are the next steps we take with that? That's obviously up to us, but, yeah, something so rich and what all of us have to offer.

Jessie Phoenix: 00:58:35

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's part of that, like, decolonizing the Eurocentric ways of thinking of if there's a right way that this is the way that we fix this thing, and that's just not how this world works, right? There are many ways to tend to many things. And I think it's we live in a time that we need to remember that yeah, or that. Because part of it feeds when we forget that, which we do all the time. It feeds this part of us that thinks that we're doing it the wrong way, yeah, and there, yeah. That

Nicole Lohse: 00:59:20

there's something wrong with that, with us, that we have to, yeah, change who we are to fit in, that we have to do this to be accepted. Yeah, all that comes back online because we've also been in those dynamics for a long time. We've forgotten how to remember and to listen and to

Jessie Phoenix: 00:59:39

to trust ourselves. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Lohse: 00:59:46

Anything else you want to add? Oh, I do want to add just Yes. You have your program that you run a couple times a year, but also your newsletters. I want to just speak to for a moment you just started to. Monthly newsletters, and I am really enjoying them. I love that there's, yeah, there's a lot of curiosity you open into it, and creativity, like every time I open it, I feel invited into both my creativity through your poetry or through your pictures or like it makes me pause and tune into my own sense of creativity. You all often after offer up a recipe of some kind and just Yeah, your words spark curiosity and creativity for me, and I just wanted to share that if anyone is jiving with what Jesse's sharing, to sign up for your newsletter because it is a nice little monthly invitation. So thank you for those.

Jessie Phoenix: 01:00:46

Thanks so much. Yeah, it took me a very long time, years and years and years I've been trying to get a monthly newsletter out. When I had a I used to make jewelry as as a business, and all those years, 20 years, I did that, and I wanted to have a monthly newsletter today. Did it happen? Nope, but this June, this June 1 monthly newsletter. And, you know, funny enough, actually, September's went out today on October 2, because that's just how that goes. It sure is. I so appreciate your words there. And, yeah, it's been fun to just, you know, I want to create more relationship. And it's just such a weird time of the I was actually just listening to a podcast of yours. I don't remember which episode, but just the weirdness of, like, marketing myself and all that, like, how do we, you know, do that? And what feels like, just said she really wants to be on the podcast. It's fair amongst like, the the like Racket, you know, that just, it's just so full, everything's kind of like bloated, you know, and at the same time, like, there's space, there's space for good things to be heard and shared, and we need nourishment, right? So I just appreciate that so much because I've been trying to create something that is nourishing there, so

Nicole Lohse: 01:02:17

it's hitting the nourishing buttons for me, yeah, yeah. And then that way, if people are jiving with you, they'll also get updates on upcoming workshops or programs, because I think your next one's in the spring, right? Yeah,

Jessie Phoenix: 01:02:36

the next self compassion course will be in the spring, and then the next seasonal ceremony will be in the Comox Valley. Will be around Winter Solstice. And I'm working to get my poetry book out. I'd love to have it out by the end of the year, but we'll

Nicole Lohse: 01:02:55

see. We'll see exactly, exactly. Oh, that's exciting. Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Jessie Phoenix: 01:03:04

Oh, thank you for having me so much fun. I feel like we could just keep on going for you

Unknown: 01:03:11

sure we could

Jessie Phoenix: 01:03:14

so such a treat to like just be in conversation, and thank you for making so much space for me to share my thoughts and ideas and the such a lovely invitation you offer here.

Nicole Lohse: 01:03:27

Thank you. Yeah, I I love being showing up this way, or get to just have conversations with people that I'm intrigued by and who have supported me. And yeah, it just allows us all to continue to get curious in some form about our own experiences and about the experiences around us that we're all a part of. So here's to the ongoing explorations. That's

Jessie Phoenix: 01:03:55

right, experientially. Yep, exactly.

Nicole Lohse: 01:04:00

Awesome. All your information will be in show notes, so people can link to all that there. Thank you again. Jesse,

Jessie Phoenix: 01:04:08

thank you, Nicole.